Comments on: A Mormon in the Disenchanted Forest

By: MJP

MJP — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 23:32:21 +0000

Thanks for coming to Berkeley! Very thoughtful and well crafted presentations.

By: Brad L

Brad L — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 02:53:14 +0000

“Faith begins at the moment we say ‘I don’t understand.’ Faith here is not a choice to believe but choice’s opposite, born in a moment of spiritual hesitation or aporia; not first a triumph of the moral mind, but its fortunate failure.”

I guess the part I don’t understand is why one should, or does, commit themselves to a belief system that they simply don’t understand. I mean, I can see how someone might find reason to commit lots of time, resources, and emotional energy to an institution when they understand only parts of its doctrine, but not the doctrine in full. But my general reaction to ideas, or a body of ideas, that I don’t understand and can’t make sense out of is either 1) to not give me serious attention, or 2) if I deem it important for me to understand such ideas, I make inquiries to others or through my own introspection until I can get some understanding of it. If after I spend a great deal of time trying to understand a set of ideas (as, for instance, I did with quantum physics and the Chinese language a number of years ago) and cannot see progress in my understanding of it, I move on to other ideas and concepts that I can more easily grasp. I gather from your post, Rosalynde, that there is something that causes you to think that the claims of Mormonism are important and that they are worthwhile for you spend at least some time trying to understand a part of them.

By: Dave

Dave — Sat, 18 Apr 2015 23:39:05 +0000

Nice discussion, Rosalynde. I think we Mormons need a non-polarizing vocabulary for discussion of faith and doubt questions that doesn’t boil down to “faith good, doubt bad.” This seems like a nice step forward.

By: Ben Britton

Ben Britton — Sat, 18 Apr 2015 13:45:31 +0000

Of course there are really things to puzzle about, P. For example, you could start with traditions from various Native American peoples spread across the continents of a bearded (sometimes light skinned) God, who visited, healed, and taught people. There is also the eye witnessed method of how the Book of Mormon text came to be: head in a hat with no manuscript or books for reference. That is an amazing feat to both the believer and the skeptic. One last example is the heavy data that has resulted from Royal Skousen’s critical text of the Book of Mormon (volumes published by Yale Press) that the original text of the Book of Mormon contains numerous grammatical and syntactic structures from the 15th and 16th centuries. All of this merits honest humble puzzlement.

By: p

Fri, 17 Apr 2015 04:26:04 +0000

Saying I’m “puzzled” because there’s no archaeological or genetic record of BoM peoples is like saying I’m “puzzled” to discover the earth is actually round after I’ve been taught since childhood that it’s flat – i.e., it requires a deep foundational belief in both BoM and flat earth. Puzzlement is a believer’s option and would seem to preclude the achievement of a tipping point, after which not doubt but unbelief sets in. “Doubt” is also a believer’s option, and implies that the truth/untruth of a given matter is still in play.

“Puzzlement implies humility. If provisional doubt must be mastered by individual judgment and choice, then puzzlement marks the limits of our intellectual and moral mastery.”

Well, maybe not, Rosalynde. When the claims & stories simply become unbelievable, flat-earth style, “puzzlement” might simply imply denial.

By: Ben S

Ben S — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 21:38:08 +0000

I love your use of “puzzlement.” Frankly, that is one of the things that attracts me so much to the Old Testament, that it is a foreign, puzzling, tantalizing thing that beckons to peel back its layers. I think our cultural LDS need to have everything figured out and tied up in neat theological packages is both a real obstacle and stumbling block.

By: stephenchardy

stephenchardy — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 19:25:46 +0000

I think that this is a great topic, and also wish that I could attend. I chafe a bit at the word: disenchanted. I would prefer the word “unenchanted.” The difference being that your forest is a lovely and beautiful place, but not a very magical place. My experiences are valuable, but not other-worldly. At least that is how I understand it.

By: Frank Pellett

Frank Pellett — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 18:01:32 +0000

I’ve found this to be one of the hardest things writing on the internet. Sometimes what we write tends to be seen as certainty. This is what we believe, argue if you can. But most of the writing by those of us who keep most things in puzzlement aren’t making a statement of certainty but of probing for answers; wondering if this thought might fit with a tentativeness that it may be completely wrong.

We write with a desire to learn, not with the thought that none can possibly disagree.

By: Kevin Barney

Kevin Barney — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 17:05:28 +0000

Break a leg, Rosalynde!

By: Cat

Cat — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 16:53:12 +0000

I used to live in the Bay Area. I wish I still did, I would love to attend. This piece describes me better than any I have read. I have trouble describing myself to myself, until today. Very much appreciated.