Comments on: When Symbolism isn’t Symbolic https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/02/when-symbolism-isnt-symbolic/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Al Miller https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/02/when-symbolism-isnt-symbolic/#comment-530496 Tue, 24 Feb 2015 00:06:43 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=32784#comment-530496 The only approach to the scriptures institutionally that leaves room for personal revelation is some form of literalism. I would prefer that my spiritual insights not have to be tested against some in vogue “non-literal” reading. Of course I am sure that if this makes it out of moderation someone will remind me that I am being simplistic.

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By: jc https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/02/when-symbolism-isnt-symbolic/#comment-530391 Thu, 19 Feb 2015 20:55:38 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=32784#comment-530391 Ironically, progressive blindness forces me to see more. But in vision, as with so much sense-data, what my brain perceives and interprets is what really matters – what I “see” is not what I see.

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By: Alison Moore Smith https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/02/when-symbolism-isnt-symbolic/#comment-530387 Thu, 19 Feb 2015 20:23:35 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=32784#comment-530387 Nathaniel, fascinating stories and connections.

E.D., I also assumed a temple focus and think your questions would make for a very interesting discussion.

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By: Pacumeni https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/02/when-symbolism-isnt-symbolic/#comment-530350 Wed, 18 Feb 2015 04:19:46 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=32784#comment-530350 A rhetorical reading of scripture combines the literal and the symbolic. It provides richer understanding by encouraging us to see, at once, interwoven literal and symbolic meanings. Any text that is not rhetorical is likely to be of little consequence. A good example of a rhetorical reading is this article on Nephi’s killing of Laban.

http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/16/1/S00007-50cf96ad9a82c3Laban-Lar.pdf

The article argues and illustrates that virtually every detail in Nephi’s account of this event serves the rhetorical purpose of affirming Nephi’s (versus Laman and Lemuel’s) right to rule. God declares in 2: 22 that Nephi will be made a ruler over his brothers. Then as chapter 3 opens, both Lehi and God (through lots) give Laman an opportunity to demonstrate that he is worthy to be king. Laman fails and at the end of the chapter uses a rod, symbol of royal power, to beat Nephi and Sam. An angel stops the beating and declares that Laman has forfeited his right to rule. Immediately thereafter in chapter 4 Nephi leaves, alone, to get the brass plates. As the article shows, details in the slaying narrative frame Nephi as God’s chosen leader by echoing Moses’ slaying of the Egyptian and closely matching David’s slaying of Goliath. Nephi acquires the sword of Laban and the brass plates, which become preeminent symbols of sovereignty among the Nephites. Bearing the plates/law in his arms like Moses, Nephi leads captive Israel (symbolized by the slave Zoram) out of bondage, into the desert beside the Red Sea, and on to the Promised Land. Nephi and Zoram make a covenant that signifies the covenant all Nephites make with their king.
The article argues that any event includes thousands of details that could be incorporated into its narration. Thus, the literal details can be selected and arranged (as in this case) to communicate through the literal a particular symbolic meaning. The force of this story, especially for its original and most important audience, flows from the fact that literal events bear such clear symbolic/political meaning.

Fellow Mormon and eminent professor of literature at the University of Chicago, Wayne Booth, was an especially influential advocate of reading texts rhetorically.

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By: E.D. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/02/when-symbolism-isnt-symbolic/#comment-530344 Tue, 17 Feb 2015 19:51:26 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=32784#comment-530344 Interesting. When I started reading this, I thought the topic would be temple symbolism. How much of that is symbolic vs. literal? Do we construct symbolism to explain away literal interpretations that are extremely problematic?

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/02/when-symbolism-isnt-symbolic/#comment-530342 Tue, 17 Feb 2015 19:00:41 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=32784#comment-530342 While CES has adopted literalism in places I think we should be careful. It doesn’t adopt literalism everywhere and where it adopts literalism shifts with time. I tend to find the literalism category as largely misleading. The question is more what presuppositions it reads certain passages with.

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By: FarSide https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/02/when-symbolism-isnt-symbolic/#comment-530339 Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:52:19 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=32784#comment-530339 Nathaniel, although I agree with your general observation, the risk that CES will abruptly abandon its penchant for scriptural literalism in favor of an approach that emphasizes metaphor and symbolism is remote (i.e., your odds are better with the PowerBall lottery).

Literalism’s appeal is intoxicating because it obviates the need for thinking and sidesteps the vexing problems of nuance, ambiguity, paradox and uncertainty. It is safe to assume to that scriptural literalism’s siren song will continue to enchant the church as an institution and the lion’s share of its members for many years to come.

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By: Adam G. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/02/when-symbolism-isnt-symbolic/#comment-530337 Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:09:48 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=32784#comment-530337 About smashing into a metal pole–I wonder if pain actually hay physical neurological effects that enhance learning.

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By: hope_for_things https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/02/when-symbolism-isnt-symbolic/#comment-530336 Tue, 17 Feb 2015 15:56:54 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=32784#comment-530336 You bring up an interesting point about missing out on some of the beauty of the writing if we look beyond the mark. I think this is entirely possible. However, I think the tendency within our religious culture is to do the exact opposite much more frequently. We miss out on the reality of how God can interact with us personally because our traditions focus on the miraculous and mythical.

Humans want to tell tall tales, especially about the divine. Yet my personal experiences with God are much different than many of the miraculous scriptural accounts. I can’t prove that any one of these scriptural accounts didn’t literally happen, but through scientific discovery and textual criticism we are learning so much that deconstructs the legendary stories that scriptures contain.

Are you recommending that I naively continue to perpetuate many of these myths just because I risk missing out on the narrow possibility that God perhaps did defy natural laws and intervene in some inexplicable way? I think it’s better to acknowledge the likelihood of fabricated stories, and to focus on realistic ways that we can connect with God today, and not so intently focus on retaining fantastical narratives of the past.

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By: Steve Smith https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/02/when-symbolism-isnt-symbolic/#comment-530333 Tue, 17 Feb 2015 00:22:59 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=32784#comment-530333 Awesome story about blindness. Thanks for talking about the story of Daniel Kish, I had never heard of him before. Also, I had no idea what echolocating was, but now I think I have a better sense of its meaning.

The highest guide to understanding the scriptures is to follow the same Spirit by which they were written

How do we determine which spirit in which they were written? Might delusional and deceptive be termed as spirits of writing? For instance, might we consider the possibility that early Hebrew scribes wrote the story of Noah and the flood either with the intent to deceive other members of the Hebrew nation or because they were under a delusion about nature and history? We have modern-day examples of people who seem to deliberately deceive others in the name of religion, Sri Sathya Sai Baba being a prime example. While alive he performed all sorts of magic tricks, which have been exposed by rationalists and skeptics, giving naive followers the impression that he possessed supernatural or special spiritual powers. I have every reason to believe that fraudsters existed in the past, some of whom may have written things which they duped others into believing was holy writ. Also, might schizophrenic be appropriately termed as a spirit of writing (maybe a subcategory of delusional)? No small number of human beings suffer from schizophrenia (according to schizophrenia.com, about one percent of the human population). Might a person writing down words that s/he claimed were divine revelations have been undergoing a schizophrenic episode?

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By: Jean @ Howling Frog https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/02/when-symbolism-isnt-symbolic/#comment-530331 Mon, 16 Feb 2015 23:17:34 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=32784#comment-530331 Fascinating stuff. I wonder if this would help to explain Jacques Lusseyran’s memoir, “And There Was Light,” in which he talks about going blind before the age of 8, but insists that he could see–just not with his eyes. Or something. I found it difficult to wrap my brain around, but he might be describing something like this. It’s a great memoir, btw, check it out.

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