Comments on: For Zion – Part 5 https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/02/for-zion-part-5/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 05 Aug 2018 23:56:25 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Robert C. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/02/for-zion-part-5/#comment-530566 Fri, 27 Feb 2015 17:16:28 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=32856#comment-530566 (Sorry, one more thought that ties my thoughts above to what you said in your post: I think if we consider “the unseen that is included in the seen through its exclusion” from the so-called secular perspective I hinted at above, then one of the most important things we find, IMHO, is a view of human nature that is genuinely capable of loving, forgiving and trusting others in ways that runs counter to most approaches–or, at least, most traditional approaches–to thinking about institutions, organizations, and motivation.

So, I think Mormons should be very interested in the recent interest in movements like positive psychology that are trying to rethink institutions, practices, and motivation from the perspective of, say, intrinsic rather than extrinsic motivation, and the perspective of building trust rather than focusing on structures and mechanisms of enforcement or regulation. This, to me, is where we are beginning to see what has traditionally been excluded….)

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By: Robert C. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/02/for-zion-part-5/#comment-530565 Fri, 27 Feb 2015 17:08:57 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=32856#comment-530565 Ben, another excellent post. I wish I had time right now to engage you (and/or others) in more detailed discussion of these ideas and issues.

I like your algebra example, because I think it helps articulate in simpler terms one of the issues that Joe is getting at. I suspect I’m among Joe’s (and Adam Miller’s) biggest fans, but I think that there are many readers who find his(/their) writing too abstract, abstruse, or philosophically dense to really grapple with. So, I think your example is very helpful, esp. in thinking about the sense in which the specific Mormon covenants we make basically create the stuff (or “topology,” to invoke a term that has both specialist mathematical and non-specialist vernacular connotations) out of which we construct real hope in our lives in the here and now.

However, not being a true-blue philosopher, I think that, in order for these rather rarified theological insights to really grow legs that will resonate more widely (at least among less philosophically inclined Mormons), this translation effort that you have begun needs to be applied also to the secular landscape that we find ourselves in.

That is, to understand the “space” of hope, I think we need to think quite carefully about the practices, institutions, organizations, beliefs, and communities that comprise our society, and to analyze all of this in light of the standards of Zion (and the concept of hope) articulated by scripture. This is more of a sketch of writing projects that I hope others (including, or esp., myself) will do in the future, than a critique of what Joe is saying, as a philosopher, but I also think it’s worth thinking about in an effort to understand what Joe’s book is and isn’t doing, and how it might take root and sprout root in the future.

(And, to be a tad more specific, thinking about the secular space of a Mormon hope for Zion requires thinking about the incentives and culture that exist in our work lives, and how these cultures are affected by incentive structures built into for-profit, non-profit, and government institutions, respectively, and how these incentives inflect the way that we understand and discuss political policies and controversies, and how we navigate value-laden decisions and discussions in our messily constituted political, social, and religious lives, affiliations, networks, etc….)

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