PS: Nic, a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

You have no idea how excited I was to be #300. I had been waiting as the comment # inched up…and finally, I’ve accomplished something worthwhile with my life :)

And thank you for explaining your rationale again – I now get what you’re saying, which makes sense.

If there’s any way to string this conversation along for another 96 comments, I’m totally game!

PP, you have won an all expense paid mind meld with Nic the Knowledgable to have the meaning of life, explanations of the universe’s most complex mysteries, and all understanding presented to personally on a gilded platter.

The reason the inconsistency doesn’t exist is because I do not hold the position you are claiming. I responded in #288:

I see lots of “need” to disclose it, just no mechanism to relay such ideas in a reasonable information bundle.

Right now the church essays are all we have from an authoritative view, and they don’t make sense of the facts at all. What is there to say? “Yup, tons of crazy historical stuff…that looks pretty damning…on the surface…but really…I’m sure it’s fine…because…PROPHET!”

As I said in that comment, if we can finally start from the position that prophets are regular people with extraordinary callings in the spiritual realm (which I believe is the correct position), then we can much more easily work with bad behavior and/or behavior we can’t explain. We don’t have to claim all their behavior is acceptable to God. We can even go so far as to say, “No way, no how, was that from God.”

My point is that now that no one can deny the historical information (except that one guy who still blames legal…) and we have deified our leaders and relied on their (near) infallibility, members are between a rock and a hard place.

Logically I think we have to give up one or the other—or get an inspired explanation. Either the facts go back in the anti-Mormon denial pile or we stop putting our human leaders on the right-smack-dab-next-to-God pedestal or we have someone in authority explain how all this mess isn’t really a mess.

Congrats on making it to 300 comments! Also, now that the comments are tapering off, I do hope you’ll have the time to address in more detail why you don’t think we have any obligation to “warn” investigators about polygamy (or other topics) before they join the Church.

As I re-read your post, it seems that you’re not too happy that the topic of polygamy was avoided/white-washed from Church, and that you don’t like the argument that you “could” or “should” have known. This all sounds great.

What I don’t understand is how you can hold this position, but also not blink an eye in saying we have no responsibility to tell investigators about these problematic issues beforehand, so they can better judge whether joining the church is the right thing for them.

Don’t you see the inconsistency in your position?

Given how much hurt exists among lifelong members who felt like the truth (about polygamy) was hidden from them, don’t you think investigators or new converts feel the same hurt, knowing that the church, its missionaries, and the numerous members they met before their bapitism ALL kep this information from them?

If there was ever a time to excuse bad behavior as a mistake this was it. And that didn’t happen.

Agreed, this would have been a good time.

My thoughts, very briefly, are that (1) major revelation comes in bursts and has more to do with community preservation than individual need and (2) our current leaders are loathe to declare revelation of the “we talked to God” type that JS claimed regularly. In other words (on #2), it may take them a generation or more to “overturn” what seems to have been part of a God-commanded action (as with the black/priesthood/temple ban).

Brian Larsen, spot on, brother.

And with that, I have actually caught up on the responses. :) I will leave the thread open for another day or two. If anyone feels compelled (by conscience, desire, or an angel with a flaming sword) to chime in, do so now or forever hold your peace. :) Thanks to all!

It was so scandalous that even faithful, believing Saints today are driven to such madness that they pound out 3500 word+ blog posts about how “incredulous” they are.

While you’re busy railing on Frank Pellet for not being willing enough to indulge in your riddle, you’re not willing to think carefully about the post you chose to comment on (repeatedly). There simply is no where in the post that I express incredulity about JS’s polygamy. I say I didn’t know about it, then I did (over two decades ago).

But, yes, I suspect your pearls are far too precious for the swine here. And the general authority swine. And the swine of the rest of humanity. In fact, given how high up you are on that rameumptom you probably couldn’t throw that far anyway. We all suffer in that loss.

New Iconoclast:

Besides, Frank, that’s an additional $299.99. But he’ll throw in a Sham-Wow and a ThighMaster as a bonus for readers of T&S.

Don’t forget the Slap Chop, a favorite toy for all men who believe manipulation of women is just a means to an end.

Jared vdH:

Do you believe in a God that commands genocide?

I know you weren’t talking to me, Jared, but I certainly believe in one that could command genocide—and do so ethically. I mean, what are ethics outside of God’s definition? What about earth life is so meaningful that it’s value couldn’t be trumped?

Joel Winter, I’m not making the argument that any particular piece of data is admissible, I’m arguing that it’s irrelevant because this isn’t court. It’s a discussion. And only a discussion arbiter (which, in this case is me) can dismiss items presented for consideration. You probably noticed I almost never delete comments, even really lame ones. :)

I think the current GD classes we have should be intermediate and we should have an advanced class.

Hahah can you even imagine? Pardon my crassness, but I think this is rather like sizing condoms. “Hmmm. Should I get the large, x-large, or massive?”

Of course, we’d end up with most women self-selected into the intermediate class and most men in advanced—along with most pompous backsides or either gender—actual scriptural knowledge notwithstanding. I just can’t go there. :)