Comments on: What Are You Doing on December 23rd? https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/what-are-you-doing-on-december-23rd/ Truth Will Prevail Mon, 06 Aug 2018 17:29:28 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Ronan https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/what-are-you-doing-on-december-23rd/#comment-112853 Tue, 20 Dec 2005 15:51:03 +0000 /?p=208#comment-112853 June 27.

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By: Nate https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/what-are-you-doing-on-december-23rd/#comment-12047 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=208#comment-12047 I like it.

Way back when, Pioneer Day used to be closely linked to Joseph Smith. The Mormon Exodus was closely tied in the Mormon mind with the muder of Joseph and Hyrum, and July 24th was an opprotunity to wave the bloody shirt and remind Mormons not to get too comfortable with America. For example, the Nuavoo Legion used to march through down town Salt Lake carrying a painted banner showing Joseph Smith in his temple robes. The banner is still in the Church collections.

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By: Russell Arben Fox https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/what-are-you-doing-on-december-23rd/#comment-12048 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=208#comment-12048 Nate, that is so cool. I never knew that. I always thought July 24th was very much a post-statehood, “differentiate-ourselves-within-the-American-context” sort of holiday. I had no idea it was much celebrated by the State of Deseret.

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By: Taylor https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/what-are-you-doing-on-december-23rd/#comment-12049 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=208#comment-12049 If there is going to be a Mormon holiday, it should be April 6th. I don’t think celebrating JS birthday is a good idea, neither for what it represents to outsiders, not for what it represents for insiders. For outsiders, we already catch too much flack for elevating the importance of the prophets, especially JS. For insiders, I think that holidays for particular saints has too much Catholicizing potential, blurring the lines between veneration and worship.

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By: Ben https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/what-are-you-doing-on-december-23rd/#comment-12050 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=208#comment-12050 I’m with Taylor on this one, at least for an Institutional festival. There’s nothing wrong with families sitting down and talking abotu JS because it’s his birthday, or some other kind of tradition etc. It’s something I plan on doing with my own family to instill a kind of historical consciousness in my kids minds, Jewish-style. “Why is this day different from all other days?” Because today is JS birthday, or the 4th of july or Endowment day (May 4)…

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By: Russell Arben Fox https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/what-are-you-doing-on-december-23rd/#comment-12051 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=208#comment-12051 Taylor,

Regarding outsiders, is it really appropriate to figure out how to best inculcate and celebrate the faith by reference to the amount of “flak” we might receive?

Regarding insiders, do you really think it would be so difficult to theologically preserve the distinction between honoring and worshipping, between celebrating and invoking?

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By: Taylor https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/what-are-you-doing-on-december-23rd/#comment-12052 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=208#comment-12052 Russell,
For outsiders- I think we construct ourselves all the time. I also think we are conscious of how we are perceived all the time. The new church logo is a good example. While it certainly has the effect of emphasizing an important part of our identity, I am quite sure that it was done to emphasize that part of our identity to outsiders. Besides, as long as we are a missionary church, our interest in “outsiders'” perception of us will remain crucial.
For insiders- yes, i do. If we celebrate JS’s b-day, what exactly are we celebrating? His birth? His mission? His prophethood? Holidays are nothing without ritual. What sort of ritual practices would we observe? IMO, these are the some of the sorts of things that led to the increased importance of saints in Catholic Christianity (along with inherited paganism), something that I think we can do without.
It seems to me that religious holidays should remember a divine event. Personally, I don’t think that JS’s birth qualifies.

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By: Russell Arben Fox https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/what-are-you-doing-on-december-23rd/#comment-12053 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=208#comment-12053 “It seems to me that religious holidays should remember a divine event. Personally, I don’t think that JS’s birth qualifies.”

And Pioneer Day does?

I’m not talking about a “holy day” (though in some ways I think it would be a good thing if we had some). I’m talking about a Mormon holiday: similar, but not exactly the same. What’s wrong with that?

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By: Taylor https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/what-are-you-doing-on-december-23rd/#comment-12054 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=208#comment-12054 I never defended Pioneer Day as a religious holiday, but I think it could defintely be an Exodus event with religious significance. It represents the establishment of the LDS people as any other single event. The annual parade resembles the pioneer trek as a procession. Sure, this could be a very good religious holiday.
Also, I do think that having a Mormon holiday would be a good idea, but I said that I think it should be April 6th, not JS birthday.

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By: Scott https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/what-are-you-doing-on-december-23rd/#comment-12055 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=208#comment-12055 A few thoughts:

1) Why should Mormons celebrate Christmas? We know the pagan origins and elements of the holiday. We know Jesus wasn’t born on December 25. By the time Christians began celebrating Christ’s birth in meaningful numbers, they were well on their way to apostasy. So why hang on to an apostate holy day?

2) I don’t mean to suggest that there’s anything wrong with commemorating Jesus’ birth. But wouldn’t it make more sense to do so on, say, the date of His birth? As Mormons have traditionally believed that to be April 6–a date that also has enormous significance as a founding moment of the modern Church–shouldn’t we celebrate then?

3) What about December 23? It’s close to Christmas, of course. Scandalously close. “Outsider” reaction would be quite predictable. So what? “Outsiders”–the vast majority of whom never make the least effort to inform themselves–already maintain all sorts of false and ridiculous perceptions about who we are and what we believe. How would celebrating Joseph Smith’s birth change that? (Even if it did provoke new reactions, that would mean more missionary opportunities.) As for “insider” dangers, I’m not terribly concerned. If we can sing “Hail to the Prophet” without lapsing into idolatry, I think we can manage commemorating the guy’s birthday.

4) Martyr’s Day–June 27. While I wouldn’t mind celebrating Smith’s birth, I think it makes more sense to commemorate his death–the sealing of his testimony with blood. The day needn’t be confined to the Smith brothers, but all martyrs of this dispensation.

Scott

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By: Russell Arben Fox https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/what-are-you-doing-on-december-23rd/#comment-12056 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=208#comment-12056 Scott,

Well, as you can imagine, I’m a big fan of Christmas, complete with its pagan and “apostate” heritage. I think there are numerous important goods–spiritual, artistic, civic, cultural–associated with the day which are not transferable to another date, however strongly we might insist on April 6th. As for Martyr’s Day, I like that idea a lot: maybe more than Smith’s birthday. It’d fit in nicely with my “Smith ‘passion’ plays” idea as well; I could see the development of a lot of historical lessons and dramas and songs, all centering around the murder of Joseph and Hyrum Smith (and, as you say, by extension, all those others murdered for their faith in the early day’s of this dispensation).

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By: Taylor https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/what-are-you-doing-on-december-23rd/#comment-12057 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=208#comment-12057 My concern with a holiday for JS birthday is about its meaning. What would it mean that we celebrate his birthday? What would we do on that day? What sorts of rituals would be associated with it? The difference with “Haid to the Prophet” is that it has no ritual attached to it.
I guess another difficulty I have with it is that I see JS message as one of democritization of spirituality and prophethood. I fear that institutionalizing his memory in ritual observance would reverse that.

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By: travis https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/what-are-you-doing-on-december-23rd/#comment-12058 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=208#comment-12058 what would we do?

hmmm. i dunno. but the kids would love it. remember when you were young, in grade school and all the muslim and jewish kids had these cool holidays when you had to be in school? then they got to celebrate all of the christian holidays, too?

that’s what having our own holiday is all about: expanding our religious rights and making the neighbor kids jealous.

as for how we actually celebrate it, i suggest something like how most people currently celebrate president’s day: sleep in and be lazy! at night, one might perhaps sit down with the family for a meal featuring traditional mormon foods such as jello and funeral potatoes. light on the ritual! heavy ritual made peter priesthood a dull boy!

now, i don’t mean to be too lighthearted about this. i am in awe of the amazing events of the restoration and grateful for joseph smith’s mission. and celebrating the holiday would be cool. just, there are some humorous implications.

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By: clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/what-are-you-doing-on-december-23rd/#comment-12059 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=208#comment-12059 Tangentally related, I suspect that there will be a shift from the process of the past 30 years of “assimilation” and building on common ground with other Christian churches. I say that in part due to the slowing of church growth to basically effective zero growth in places like the United States.

At a certain point this worrying about being different which started in the 1890’s but really became strong from the 70’s on, will reverse. I have no idea what we’ll focus in on. But I recall even in my youth a tendency to not believe something just because Evangelical Protestants did. (Robert Millet discusses this in his work on Grace) I think that tendency incorrect, obviously. But it does highlight the changes that really became dominant in the 90’s. I think it was a good thing to do, btw. I even think the Olympics was a good idea from a religious perspective. But eventually other things will become important.

I also recall various prophecies about Missionary work and the idea that we’d become strong in most regions of the world but that missionary work would someday falter as well.

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By: Jan https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/what-are-you-doing-on-december-23rd/#comment-12060 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=208#comment-12060 I think that Taylor is right to be concerned about what nonmembers think. How many nonmembers would be frightened away from the church because of a holiday that elevates the birth of a single man to that of Jesus? What other religious holiday do we celebrate in honor of one man? Just Easter and Christmas. Jesus, as the Son of God, rightfully deserves our full attention on these days. Giving JS his own holiday would give credence to some critics’ false claims that we worship JS. While JS was an important man and arguably the most important man in the latter days, he wasn’t Jesus. I think that is an important distinction. I also think that it a distinction the church itself has made with the new logo.

On the other hand, how many nonmembers would investigate the church because of an interesting (and non-threatening) holiday they’ve never heard of that (if they were a member) would give them one more excuse to miss work? Missionary potential, right there…

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