Comments on: “Goodly Parents” https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/goodly-parents/ Truth Will Prevail Mon, 06 Aug 2018 17:29:28 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Ben https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/goodly-parents/#comment-12267 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=233#comment-12267 This is Marc Schindler’s conclusion as well.
http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/B/goodly.htm
I think many of our interpretations (a few at the “official” level) commit the error of interpreting in ignorance of what the words meant in JS time(or in NT times, etc.)

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By: Renee https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/goodly-parents/#comment-12268 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=233#comment-12268 I agree that it could mean wealthy. If it does, is it a big deal? Wealth isn’t a sin. How it’s used, that’s the subject under debate elsewhere.

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By: Kaimi https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/goodly-parents/#comment-12269 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=233#comment-12269 Hi Gordon,

I think you may be on to something here. But, just to suggest a possible counter-argument, isn’t it possible to accept the fact that goodly is tied to education, and yet to believe that goodly means righteous, because righteous members have a religious duty to educate their children?

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By: Gordon https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/goodly-parents/#comment-12270 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=233#comment-12270 A few quick observations:

* Ben: Thanks for the pointer. It looks like Schindler and I are on the same wavelength. It seems to me that I have heard one or two other people mention this, too, though the thought was original to me when I first had it.

* Renee: I didn’t mean to imply that being wealthy was a sin, but I did want to suggest that this may cast the story of Lehi’s family in a different light. If we begin the BofM with the notion that Lehi and Sariah were righteous parents who somehow, inexplicably, ended up with unrighteous olders sons, that is a different story than thinking of them as worldly parents who went through a conversion process. Frankly, it makes Laman and Lemuel more sympathetic to me. Read Lehi’s dream again (1 Nephi 8), and I think you will agree that Lehi is telling the story of his conversion:

“I beheld myself that I was in a dark and dreary waste. And after I had traveled for the space of many hours in darkness, I began to pray unto the Lord that he would have mercy on me, according to the multitude of his tender mercies. And it came to pass after I had prayed unto the Lord I beheld a large and spacious field. And it came to pass that I beheld a tree, whose fruit was desirable to make one happy.”

It appears to me that Lehi’s conversion happened after Laman and Lemuel were old enough to be fairly accustomed to the “good life,” and they (naturally?) rebelled. Also, Sariah took a lot of convincing and clearly was not very happy about the trek into the wilderness. Indeed, Lehi himself faltered a bit along the way. Of course, we have only Nephi’s record, but from that it appears that Nephi — the impressionable young man — was the one who most internalized his father’s teachings.

This reminds me of Joseph Smith. We often say that the Lord chose him as a young man because he could be shaped and molded. Similarly, we observe that Lehi proved tougher to change than Nephi. By the way, I think it is no coincidence that Nephi was given the same visions as his father. The Lord appears to have been working through Lehi to create a great leader (Nephi) for this branch of His people.

Kaimi: The connection between righteousness and education strikes me as a fairly modern notion, and one that is most prominent in the US. While I do not gainsay the value of education (after all, that’s how I make my living), I wonder about the connection to righteousness. I would be interested to hear what others have to say on this, as I am far from expert on the topic.

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By: tyler durden https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/goodly-parents/#comment-12271 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=233#comment-12271 i think the goodly->wealthy view fits nephi’s approach to his story much better and gives much more meaning to lehi’s sacrifice and his “dwel[ling] in a tent”

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By: Gordon https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/goodly-parents/#comment-12272 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=233#comment-12272 Tyler, Nephi’s reference to his father dwelling in a tent is interesting. Why would Nephi mention that? The reference occurs in 1 Nephi 2:15, where Nephi is first describing the family’s circumstances in the wilderness. Notice the context:

“And it came to pass that my father did speak unto them in the valley of Lemuel, with power, being filled with the Spirit, until their frames did shake before him. And he did confound them, that they durst not utter against him; wherefore, they did as he commanded them. And my father dwelt in a tent. And it came to pass that I, Nephi, being exceedingly young, nevertheless being large in stature, and also having great desires to know of the mysteries of God, wherefore, I did cry unto the Lord; and behold he did visit me, and did soften my heart that I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father; wherefore, I did not rebel against him like unto my brothers.”

The reference to Lehi in the tent falls between a description of the difficulty that Lehi is having with Laman and Lemuel and a description of Nephi’s conversion. Perhaps Nephi is noting how far his father has come, how greatly he has sacrificed for his visions. Perhaps Nephi is explaining that Lehi’s changed circumstances prompted Nephi to inquire of the Lord and to allow his heart to be softened. Quite a moving tribute of father from son.

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By: Kaimi https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/goodly-parents/#comment-12273 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=233#comment-12273 Gordon,

I’m not sure I agree that the emphasis on education is entirely modern. I’m not an expert on the topic either. But, a few thoughts:

1. The ideas that “the glory of God is intelligence” and that whetever intelligence we recieve will go with us to the next life, are modern, at least in articulation. But, when combined with the idea of an unchanging God, these may be considered eternal principles.

2. Nephi’s use of the scriptures shows the value of education. As does the return for the brass plates in the first place.

3. Much of Exodus, etc. is about teaching Israel. Other examples of education, such as Samuel, suggest its benefit.

4. On the other hand, education is a detriment if it keeps one away from God (i.e. Pharisees in the New Testament).

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By: Jeremiah John https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/goodly-parents/#comment-12274 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=233#comment-12274 Your interpetration shouldn’t be controversial, except by the fact that it runs against the standard, easy one. One thing you haven’t mentioned, however, is that it seems to make good sense of what follows “goodly parents”. When Nephi says that he was taught in the learning of his father, he is probably not saying: “My father knew Reformed Egyptian, and so he made sure I knew it, just like any good parent would.” But rather: “My parents were well off, and that allowed me the time and resources to learn the language in which I am writing this record.” The latter makes more sense and this supports your interpretation.

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By: Renee https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/goodly-parents/#comment-12275 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=233#comment-12275 Gordon, I think you’re definitely onto something with the regards to the kids. The spoiled brats. :)

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By: Jim https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/goodly-parents/#comment-12276 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=233#comment-12276 Gordon, I think you are right about “goodly.” I’ve thought that for some time, based on the fact you point out, namely that the goodliness of his parents explains his education. Within the last two or three weeks, as I’ve begun to work on next year’s lessons, I’d also begun to wonder, as you suggest, whether Lehi isn’t someone who is what today we would call an adult convert or someone reactivated as an adult. That may be too strong, but I think you’re right that something is going on that we’ve overlooked, and it has a lot to do with why Laman and Lemuel are rebelious. On the other hand, I don’t want to overlook the obvious possibility that the children of a righteous person can rebel against the religion of that parent. But, as you point out, there are several hints that Lehi has changed.

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By: tyler durden https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/goodly-parents/#comment-12277 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=233#comment-12277 not only does it give an explanation for laman and lemuels rebelliousness, it also explains why everything seems so new to lehi’s family as well as lehi’s desire to see laman and lemuel repent (perhaps he felt a certain responsibility for their behavior). it also gives a good explanation as to why laman, lemuel, and sarah accuse lehi of going crazy

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By: Gordon https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/goodly-parents/#comment-12278 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=233#comment-12278 A quick follow-up on these last two comments by Jim and Tyler. In fairness I should note that it was my wife who pointed out to me that Lehi’s dream implies an adult conversion experience. We had talked about the “goodly parents” issue, and she took that insight and ran with it. Jim, all of us who are parents want to hold open the possibility that righteous parents can produce rebellious children, but it looks like we are reaching some degree of consensus on this blog that focusing on Lehi’s wealth offers a credible explanation for the difference between Laman and Lemuel and the other children. (The fact is, Lehi was wealthy, no matter what you think of the term “goodly parents.”) Also, Tyler makes another point that my wife has made to me: Lehi was very slow to give up on Laman and Lemuel, and his Job-like patience with them might be explained by empathy. Bottom line: it all seems to fit.

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By: Greg https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/goodly-parents/#comment-12279 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=233#comment-12279 Wow — thanks for an amazing piece of group blog exegesis. Great ideas.

As for the very worthy project of giving solace to parents of inexplicably rebellious offspring, we’ll always have Cain.

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By: Michelle https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/goodly-parents/#comment-12280 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=233#comment-12280 As I teach the lesson including 1 Nephi 1, I plan to focus less on the word “goodly” and more on the word “taught.” In my mind, the ability of Nephi to obtain a “knowledge of the goodness of God” and His mysteries could be attributed in large measure to his parents’ teachings. After all, Nephi received his “testimony” after he “did believe all the words which had been spoken by [his] father” (1 Ne. 2:16).

One last thought: The word “goodly” has a variety of meanings in scripture. In my mind, it’s obvious that Lehi was wealthy, for the family left riches behind when they left Jerusalem. However, in my mind, it is a little pointless to speculate about Lehi’s pre-1-Nephi conversion status. What matters is that he *was* converted and was willing to sacrifice all to obey God. Sure, he had a few moments of weakness, but so did (and does) every other mortal!

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By: Rob https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/goodly-parents/#comment-12281 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=233#comment-12281 I’m coming to this way late…
Maybe we’re letting Lehi and Nephi off the hook a little to early here. The Book of Mormon can be read as an extended commentary about the dangers of riches and pride…could it not be that despite their conversions and ability to leave it all behind in Jerusalem, that Lehi and Nephi held on to some of their previous attitudes (of superiority based earlier on riches, later on righteousness) and that this contributed to the family feud that would later lead to wars and genocide?

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