Comments on: Christian Taxation https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/christian-taxation/ Truth Will Prevail Mon, 06 Aug 2018 17:29:28 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: brayden https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/christian-taxation/#comment-11809 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=196#comment-11809 True, Mormons do welfare programs better than the government can. But that’s partly because we have fewer needs in our church compared to the totality of needs that exist in our nation. In my ward, a fairly demographically heterogeneous ward, the bishop is almost overburdened with welfare needs. We run a welfare deficit – spending more than we bring in via fast offerings. How would it be if our bishop was meant to serve the entire non-member population living within ward boundaries? Utterly overwhelming.

Another problem with administering faith based welfare programs is that many needy people do not ascribe to any particular denomination or congregation and requiring them to find their local parish in order to receive financial help is a logistical nightmare. Not impossible but the search costs for individuals increase greatly as decentralization of the system increases. Search costs cut into earning power.

The biggest problem of all though is that church welfare systems (ours included) don’t offer the kinds of welfare services that needy people so often need. Take my family for example. I’m a student who has a reasonable stipend, and my wife works 30 hours a week so that she can have health insurance and earn enough to buy the necessities. Our children though are uninsured. We can’t afford the insurance offered by either of our employers and private insurance is even worse. We can either keep them uninsured and just take them to the county hospital ER when they’re really sick or we can turn to the state’s insurance program for uninsured children. Because we love our children and want them to be healthy, we choose the latter.

If the church offered a children’s health plan, we’d certainly jump on board, but they do not. I’m not sure about this, but I think that a majority of state welfare costs go to health care programs. This is where a lot our tax dollars are spent – helping needy children and elderly people get the medical care they need.

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By: Jim https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/christian-taxation/#comment-11810 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=196#comment-11810 Gordon, though I see the dangers about which you are concerned, I don’t see why an argument for tax reform–in this case the reform of a particularly regressive state tax system–would imply any particular kind of welfare program. Thus, though I think Brayden’s point, that there are some welfare programs that it appears only the state is in a position to administer, is an interesting one, I don’t see it as relevant to the Pace Hamill’s argument.

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By: Dave https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/christian-taxation/#comment-11811 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=196#comment-11811 Gordon,

I suppose the Christian approach to tax policy should start with “render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and unto God that which is God’s.” This suggests keeping the Judeo-Christian ethic and tax-oriented social policy analysis separate. However, to the extent one’s ethics inform one’s policy preferences, progressive taxation seems like the right emphasis.

Closer to home, I would note that tithing is regressive, at least in the US where itemizers can deduct charitable contributions. And of course the Mormon superrich pay a much lower percentage of their overall wealth increase if they don’t self-assess on capital gains (whether realized or unrealized). For example, how many California LDS homeowners pay tithing on the dizzying appreciation of their personal residence, or 10% of their eventual gain on sale? I’m guessing not too many.

Thus in actual practice, Mormon tithing policy is something like “the more you make, the less you pay as a percentage of your income.” It’s only lower income non-itemizers who pay a full 10%, and the richer you get the lower the percentage goes. I can’t believe this is unknown to those in the COB (they get excellent finanical advice), and since nothing is done or said to address this inequity, the logical conclusion is they approve of regressive incidence. No squeezing through the eye of the needle stuff here–you can drive a fully-equipped Hummer through our front door.

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By: Gordon https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/christian-taxation/#comment-11812 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=196#comment-11812 Quick response to Jim: I see your point. The line between tax reform and welfare is not direct. But Hamill makes the link. Her guiding principle is that society should treat the poor better (OK, that’s pretty simplistic, but I think you get the drift). That means not only refraining from harming the poor, but also affirmatively assisting them. Admittedly, the distinction between commission and omission is not always clear, but I reject the notion that people who oppose the expansion of the welfare state are uncharitable (an argument I have heard so often). Stated another way, I don’t think that Judeo-Christian ethics has much to say about the size of the welfare state.

Dave makes some nice points about the regressive nature of tithing. Having just sold a home, I assumed that we were supposed to pay tithing on the increase. And we did. Perhaps I should move to California and request a refund? ;-)

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By: brayden https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/christian-taxation/#comment-11813 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=196#comment-11813 Let’s put aside the question of whether it is uncharitable to oppose the welfare state, since we’re all likely to have different opinions on that. I think all might agree though that children and non-working elderly should have some form of health care. Is it charitable to deny dependents proper health care? I think that is a better, more focused question.

I personally do not think it is. Our society should strive to protect those who have no means to acquire basic needs (like proper health care) for themselves. That said, can a regressive tax system properly fund state health care systems for the needy? I think the answer is no. Most states that attempt to do this get a lot of funding from the federal government. Without that aid, the state’s are wholly unprepared to administer an adequate health services program. States with excessive tax breaks for the wealthy are essentially free-riding on the progressive tax structure at the federal level.

My main point is that regressive tax structures do not provide adequate resources for the most basic of all welfare services. If this is true, by association, regressive tax structures are uncharitable.

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By: Kaimi https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/christian-taxation/#comment-11814 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=196#comment-11814 I will have to read the article, it sounds very interesting. The idea that the scriptures command us to treat the poor better is certainly not new. It is also an idea that many LDS members like to limit or qualify, as it goes against the (less scripturally robust) idea of the protestant work ethic. For that matter, schools of thought like the Catholic offshoot of Liberation Theology are premised on the idea that the poor deserve precedence over the rich. There is certainly more than one way to view the scriptural mandates about the poor.

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By: Logan https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/christian-taxation/#comment-11815 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=196#comment-11815 I would disagree with Dave that tithing is regressive in practice. Keep in mind that from an economic point of view, the figure of a person’s “income” is an illusion. If you make $100,000 a year, what that really means is that it costs your employer that much to employ you (and that doesn’t even include the tax incidence that falls on your employer directly). The money that contributes to your consumption, saving, standard of living, etc., is much lower.

Because of the progressive tax structure in the US, the more a person makes, the greater the difference between what he or she is paid and what he or she actually receives. If a person in New York (where I live) has an income of $200,000 per year (I don’t know if that’s what you mean by “superrich”), they’d be lucky to bring home half that, or $100,000. The (largely) accepted practice of paying tithing on one’s gross income would mean that this person pays $20,000, or %20 of real income. It would take a great number of itemized deductions and untithed capital gains to bring the effective rate of tithing down to %10 or below.

If your point is that wealthy people are more likely to be dishonest in their tithe-paying, that’s beyond the scope of pure economics (which is what I know), but I’m skeptical of that, too. From the wealthy members of the church that I know personally, my personal judgment of their integrity is that it is at least comparable to that of the poorer members. Are there wealthy people who are dishonest in their tithing? Sure. But are there poorer people who do the same thing? You better believe it (I’m quite certain that there are many people in my ward in the Bronx who pay less than a full tithe).

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By: Gordon https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/christian-taxation/#comment-11816 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=196#comment-11816 Brayden, I think I might reason this a bit differently. In my view, regressive tax structures are unfair because the poorest members of society are asked to bear a disproportionate burden. Regardless of what programs the tax revenues support.

As for the question of welfare services and health care, you seem to assume that if the government exits this activity, a void will be created and will persist. My belief is that charitable institutions (not just our Church, but many churches and other charities) would fill the void. Moreover, I think they might do a better job of it than the government traditionally has done. Not perfect, but better.

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By: Nate https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/christian-taxation/#comment-11817 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=196#comment-11817 Actually there was an article a while back by a duo of economists studying the way in which Mormons described income for tithing purposes. (Note: this is obviously a different question than whether or not they actually pay tithing on the income.) I think that it was in the Review of Economics. What they found was that most Mormons thought that you should pay tithing on capital gains. The one exception (which Dave hit on) is the appreciation in home value. Capital gains also present a tricky issue of realization, and it is not clear if the home appreciation exemption was an issue of realization or income definition. If a Rich-Spiritually-Stunted-California-Mormon (RSSCM) purchases a home that appreciates, sells the home, rolls the proceeds into another home, holds the home for twenty years and then sells the home and pays tithing on the whole amount of the appreciation, have they robbed the Lord? Obiviously, tithing-deferral can make a big difference in terms of real economic costs. Should the RSSCM pay tithing not only on the appreciated value of the home, but also on the imputed interest gained on the appreciation? Or should we assume that some imputed interest income is included in the appreciation of the home?

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By: Nate https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/christian-taxation/#comment-11818 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=196#comment-11818 Gordon: It warms the libertarian cockles of my heart to hear you calling for a cut back in the state to make room for churches. However, I am, alas, skeptical. Having dealt with the very intense welfare needs of some of my hometeachees, I think that there are certain problems that the Church is not very well equipped to deal with. For example, insurance against catastrophic health expenses cannot, I think, be done very well through the Church. I don’t think it is done very well through even private insurance. Even those with “good” insurance will hit their life-time caps fairly quickly if they have a catastrophic event. (My wife has done a lot of work with quadrapelegics and traumatic brain injuries. The costs associated with such problems are astronomical. She worked for one set of quadrapelegic brothers who easily went through $20,000 of medical care expenses a month.) I am not a big fan of nationalized health care, but it seems that there are certain kinds of risks where the state is probably the best insurer.

Furthermore, I think that most of the incentive problems that plague state run welfare systems also plague Church welfare. The problem, as I see it, is that we have an ex post moral duty to respond to poverty with charity, but this ex post response creates all sorts of moral hazards that can have really bad ex ante incentive effects. As near as I can tell, this is an inescapable problem. For example, I have worked with a family on Church welfare where the parent used the supplemental income provided by the church to (sort of) pay for living expenses for her and her children, and then took her own income to increase purchases of drugs. The result was the church charity did nothing to raise the standard of living of the family and instead acted as a subsidy for drug use. This is precisely the sort of dysfunction that led to “The End of Welfare as We Know It.” I am not saying that it is the kind of dysfunction that justifies indifference. I am just saying that moral hazard remains, regardless of who provides the service.

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By: brayden https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/christian-taxation/#comment-11819 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=196#comment-11819 Gordon, I’m not sure why you think that private (either non-profit or for-profit) businesses could provide health care for the needy better than the state can. Economists often point to two advantages the state has over private companies in relation to health care provision: 1. The state is so large that it can effectively set its own price for all health services. The government can almost always underbid private providers. Those lower costs of provision result in lower costs to the consumers of health care, whether they be recepients or charitable donors. Essentially, big health care is more cost-efficient. 2. Most private providers will get into the business to create a profit. The risks of health-provision are so great that non-profits have strong incentives to allow someone else to take care of this part of “charitable” work. Because for-profits are in the business to get a profit, the profit margin is translated to the customers or charitable donors in higher prices.

Keep in mind, I’m not arguing for universalized health care; my argument only applies to health care for the needy.

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By: Russell Arben Fox https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/christian-taxation/#comment-11820 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=196#comment-11820 I was very touched and persuaded by Professor Hamill’s article when I first read it some time ago. I think she is fundamentally correct about a great deal–but then, I am already quite sympathetic to attempts to instantiate an ethic of care (in the form of health insurance, jobs programs, poverty relief and so forth) through collective institutions like the state, though obviously not all such attempts are equally wise and/or applicable in all circumstances. It’s great food for thought, and I would love to see its arguments taken up and further explored by other evangelical Christians. (Mainstream Protestantism in America, outside movements like the Salvation Army, has not been a leader in social justice arguments, unlike Roman Catholicism–and, in our more communitarian moments, Mormonism.)

Two quick points. One, I hate to think about tithing in terms of taxation, because of course it IS regressive: 10% is proportionately a much more painful sacrifice for someone trying to pay a food bill on $25,000 a year than for someone who makes $100k+ a year and is thinking that they ought to get a bigger boat. Far better to treat it as a covenant, essentially unrelated to the “works” of the church. Two, Hamill’s article actually had great impact on a recent debate in the state of Alabama, during which a conservative Republican governor used Christian arguments much like hers to promote a reform in the state’s tax code. It was a brave and noble effort, and went down in flames. The American Prospect had a good article the role of Hamill’s argument in the debate here (http://www.prospect.org/webfeatures/2003/08/wilkinson-f-08-28.html); I blogged a bit on the referendum and the aftermath here (http://philosophenweg.blogspot.com/2003_09_01_philosophenweg_archive.html#106252301777459900) and here (http://philosophenweg.blogspot.com/2003_09_01_philosophenweg_archive.html#106321538461052867). The comments by Gregg Easterbrook whom I link to are, I think, particularly interesting.

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By: Nate https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/christian-taxation/#comment-11821 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=196#comment-11821 During my first year of law school, I regular attended a Torah study group hosted by a visiting Jewish professor. It was a lot of fun.

We discussed passages from the Pentatuach discussing the finacing of the construction of the tabranacle. Each person was required to donate a fixed sum. Of course, this is even MORE regressive than tithing. The professor pointed out that the regressivity of this method had troubled the rabbi’s and they had saved the text by arguing that equal contributions meant that all Israel could claim equal ownership in the project. The purpose of the regressive, poll-tax approach was thus to prevent the rich from claiming a greater interest in the Tabranacle.

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By: Logan https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/christian-taxation/#comment-11822 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=196#comment-11822 Russell,

When I say that tithing is not regressive, I simply mean that as income increases, I’m not sure that percentage of income paid as tithing decreases. It may or may not be “proportionately a much more painful sacrifice for someone trying to pay a food bill on $25,000 a year than for someone who makes $100k+ a year and is thinking that they ought to get a bigger boat” (depending an a host of other variables). But that’s a different issue. If someone could somehow find a way to give everyone an equally burdensome rate, I’m certain they would win the Nobel Prize.

When economists talk about progressive/regressive/flat tax (or tithing) rates, they are only referring to the rates. A sales tax on food, for example, is regressive because rich and poor people spend similar absolute amounts of money on food, and as such poor people are taxed on a greater proportion of their income.

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By: Matt Evans https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/christian-taxation/#comment-11823 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=196#comment-11823 Everyone here has been far too lenient toward’s Hamill’s thesis — her understanding of Christianity is abysmal.

It’s conceivable that Christianity requires people earning X dollars per year to donate Y percent of their income to the poor. It’s inconceivable that Christianity urges us to use the threat of force against those who fail to do so. The state puts people who don’t pay their assigned taxes in jail.

And her response to Christ in Matthew 25 is to say, “Don’t blame me, I voted for policies that would have forced the rich to pay for bureaucratic programs that would have fed you”!?

Hamill’s socialist argument masquerading in Christian language is the same claptrap that J. Reuben Clark and Heber Grant warned us about.

No moral imperative within Christianity justifies using force to get others to give to the poor. If Hammill were simultaneously advocating a voluntary tax system, her idea would have merit.

But she’s not, and it doesn’t.

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