Comments on: A Mormon Image: The All-Seeing Eye https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/a-mormon-image-the-all-seeing-eye/ Truth Will Prevail Mon, 06 Aug 2018 17:29:28 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Cassie https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/a-mormon-image-the-all-seeing-eye/#comment-11483 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=166#comment-11483 Well that clarifies that for me….thank you. Someone was questioning me about Mason images being used in the temple …. my only answer was that maybe the Lord had a hand in the Masonry. I don’t really even know who Masons are, to be honest. But this answers that question for me. Thanks.

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By: Clark Goble https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/a-mormon-image-the-all-seeing-eye/#comment-11484 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=166#comment-11484 Actually a lot of people don’t realize it but the beehive, in its early Mormon use, was highly influenced by Masonry as well. (Which is not to downplay the BoM reference and the symbol of industry)

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By: Michelle https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/a-mormon-image-the-all-seeing-eye/#comment-11485 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=166#comment-11485 There is a lot of research concerning masonry and Mormonism — one article by Dr. Reed C. Durham, Jr. can be found at http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/widowson.htm. There is also a lot of research about temple symbols and their significance. A good starting point is Temple and Cosmos, by Nibley, specifically Sacred Vestments and The Circle and the Square.

I remember spending hours in the library reading about temple symbols from old, “special collections” books — all in an attempt to satiate my curiosity about a historical and cultural custom that predominated religious life of which I could not participate in. I remember reading that the clasped hands could symbolize friendship, our relationship with the Lord, and/or the marriage relationship. It was time well spent.

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By: ben https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/a-mormon-image-the-all-seeing-eye/#comment-11486 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=166#comment-11486 Nick Literski, an LDS Mason, is working on a book about the role of Masonry in the restoration, though he won’t be talking much about the temple. I don’t remember the link, but there is one under the Masonry section of my temple site, which has lots of links to published temple material.

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By: Nate https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/a-mormon-image-the-all-seeing-eye/#comment-11487 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=166#comment-11487 In a shameless bit of family self-promotion, I would also suggest:

Richard G. Oman, “The Exterior Symbolism of the Salt Lake Temple,” which was published a couple of years ago in BYU Studies.

You can download it from the BYU Studies website here:

https://byustudies.byu.edu/productitem.asp?id=1131&type=7

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By: clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/a-mormon-image-the-all-seeing-eye/#comment-11488 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=166#comment-11488 I believe there are a few other books on Mormonism and Masonry coming out. There’s been a bit written thus far ranging from Quinn to Brooke to Buerger and then a few Dialog articles. But most is either very brief or mentions only a few points. While a lot of the masonic really isn’t that religious, Mormons did adopt a lot of its symbolism and language. Brigham Young was fond of quoting masonic puns or “he who has an ear to hear” sayings. (Sort of like Nibley writes so that those familiar with the endowment will get a different take to some of his essays)

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By: Cassie https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/a-mormon-image-the-all-seeing-eye/#comment-11489 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=166#comment-11489 So can someone explain why this is bad? A non-member seem to think that if we adopted symbols from the Masonry then the church was formed off of that group and not by the Lord. What do I say? The only thing that came to me is that (as I said earlier) maybe the Lord had a hand in forming the Masonry as a way to prepare Joseph Smith?.?. I don’t know. (Feel free to giggle and laugh at me :) )

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By: clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/a-mormon-image-the-all-seeing-eye/#comment-11490 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=166#comment-11490 I agree with you Cassie. I don’t understand why Mormon parallels and borrowings from Protestantism or Catholicism are somehow acceptable but those from masonry are somehow problematic.

One can point to the evolution of certain masonic borrowings as being problematic. Brent Metcalf has done this. But this simply raises the question of the role of 19th century religious perspective as a way of restoring ancient traditions. In other words it assumes that any genealogy of 19th century culture must directly maintain borrowed items all the way back to 1st century Palestine. (i.e. if masonry retained the endowment it must retain all borrowed items in a kind of purity of repetition) This is, to my mind, not only unnecessary to the LDS position but rather doubtful a priori. Of course Mormon critics don’t see it that way, as Brent Metcalf’s writings attest. (Although the item he wrote on – the five points of fellowship – have been removed from the endowment raising obvious questions about how essential it was to the endowment and undermining his position)

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By: Cassie https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/a-mormon-image-the-all-seeing-eye/#comment-11491 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=166#comment-11491 So what does one say to someone who insists they need an answer as to why all that happened. (The removal of Masonic things from the endowment ceremony)

I do not know the history of the evolution of temple ordinances….so therefore I cannot comment on why or how they were changed.

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By: Nate https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/a-mormon-image-the-all-seeing-eye/#comment-11492 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=166#comment-11492 On Masonic Symbolism: I agree with what Clark has said. I think of it this way. Joseph Smith wrote his revelations in English using a linguistic vocabulary drawn from his environment. It does not follow that the environment provides a necessary and sufficient account of those revelations. (Although I think it is a necessary element of understanding them.) Masonry provided a symbolic vocabulary for certain elements of the temple ceremonies. However, I don’t think the use of this vocabulary makes Masonry a necessary and sufficient explination of the endowment.

On Changes: I think one important element is the changing social context of the endowment. It used to be something that a person would do just a few times in their entire life. It was very long (essentially all day). Now we have a concept of temple work for the dead in which we expect people to regularlly (where possible) attend the temple. The length (mainly as a result of repitiations) as been limited. I also think that there were teachings and oaths made in the temple which strictly speaking were not part of the endowment, which have been removed. Finally, I think that certain elements of simply been modified in light of current needs and conditions. I don’t find this problematic, but this is because I don’t really view ordinances as necessarily unchanging in their form or meaning. They are necessary not in some absolute or metaphysical sense. Rather they are relatively necessary, that is they are necessary because God requires them. And God can require different things at different times.

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By: cooper https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/a-mormon-image-the-all-seeing-eye/#comment-11493 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=166#comment-11493 My husband is currently researching and preparing a text that addresses this very subject. Without going into an exhaustive explanation suffice it to say that these symbols are not “borrowed” from masonry. These symbols are evidenced throughout millenia by all ancient civilizations. They were taught to them by the patriarchs. The use of these symbols by the Masons, Egytptians, Sumerians and others are evidience of their apostacy. They took truths taught to them by God and corrupted them by comingling them with the teachings of man. When you begin searching for these symbols, you will find them everywhere. The shaking hands are evidence of the covenant made by Abraham with God. Truth is eternal. Man corrupts it and then uses for his benefit.

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By: clark https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/a-mormon-image-the-all-seeing-eye/#comment-11494 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=166#comment-11494 I think the one problem apologists trying to argue away masonic parallels face is that it confuses the rather common archetype with the particular form of the archetype. Yes all seeing eyes are rather common. Nibley makes a big deal of them in an Egyptian context for instance. Same with handshakes, tokens of remembrance, veils, robes, ascents, etc.

However the particular form they taken in early Mormonism is clearly masonic. A lot of the symbols are understood in a masonic sense. Joseph explicitly ties the restoration of the endowment to masonry. So merely finding ancient forms of this doesn’t really address the central issue.

However to follow up with my original point, I suspect many elements of Mormonism regarding Christology and so forth Joseph got from Protestantism and Biblical commentaries. Why is that OK while receiving information from Masonry bad? Why do we accept all the revelations Joseph received in response to studying the Bible or Hebrew as fine, but get uncomfortable if he claims the same kernel as coming from Masonry or perhaps even the general “hermetic” culture?

I think this gets back to the Biblical inerrancy issue. We’re comfortable, in a certain sense, with Protestant views of Biblical inerrancy, even if we intellectually discount them. Yet extra-Biblical sources we are also very comfortable with the Protestant distrust of them – especially the conservative Protestant dislike of what I prefer to call Renaissance philosophy. (Of which masonry is one manifestation)

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By: Renee https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/a-mormon-image-the-all-seeing-eye/#comment-11495 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=166#comment-11495 The picture isn’t there now. Just the red x of doom.

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By: Richard B. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/a-mormon-image-the-all-seeing-eye/#comment-11496 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=166#comment-11496 Why should the influences of Freemasonry on Mormon rites and symbols matter when what is termed here as Protestant and Catholic influences do not?

The answer should be as obvious as it is unavoidable. Catholics and Protestants receive their “influences” from the same sources as do all Christian sects: directly from the Old and New Testaments. We as well as they are all Christians in belief, thus it is quite understandable and unavoidable that as they existed before us in worshipping Christ, we could not but receive some influence from their contemporary forms of very general worship (e.g., hymns, dress, perhaps architecture). However the deeper one proceeds into the weightier matters of faith, the less can be seen of any possible influence from other Christian denominations.

Freemasonry, on the other hand, is not at all Christian in either foundation or dogma; instead it is historically, dogmatically, and indisputably — Pagan. And most troublingly, unlike the mild Christian influences on general worship that can perhaps be said to exist in the Church from other sects, yet the deeper one proceeds into Mormon doctrine and ordinances the more influence Freemasonry has.

Freemasonry claims to have originated in ancient Egpyt from pagan religions and practices founded upon a very solid foundation of the Occult, astrology, numerology, and Magick, all of which are denounced in the strongest terms possible by the Old Testament, the New Testament, and — last but hardly least — the Mormon Church itself, irnoically.

In the Bible, the hatred with which the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob denounces all “magicians,” “soothsayers,” “witches,” and pagan representatives is so great that entire cities were laid waste by His command. And this same righteous disdain is ironically found almost as strongly in the Mormon Church, too… though not at all in any genocidal sense, of course. Thus were God to truly have inspired Joseph as claimed, there can be not one shred of doubt but that He would most certainly not have done so in restoring such important lost Truths as the Temple and its ordinances through the influences of such pagan and borderline-Satanic beliefs and practices as those found in Freemasonry.

And that, I’m afraid, is why the Freemason influences matter so much to anyone for whom Truth also matters.

However for “Molly Mormons” and others like them for whom “warm fuzzies” matter more, please ignore these facts, take two chapters from Moroni, say a quick “cleansing” prayer to “feel the Spirit”… and prolly by morning you’ll again be able to face your Mormon painting of Christ as an auburn-haired, Caucasian BYU linebacker, and the photos of the nearest Temple and the First Presidency smiling so sweetly down at you… and feel the waves of Mormon “Stepford Family” catatonia descend, thankfully obliterating from your concern all the unsettlingly poignant facts herein contained.

Hmmm… perhaps a more suitable analogy of Mormon indifference to facts and complacent “contentment” can be found elsewhere in science fiction —

Landru: “You will be absorbed.
Your individuality will merge
into the unity of good,
and in your submergence into the
common being of ‘The Body,’
you will find contentment
and fulfillment.
You will experience…
the absolute good.”

Kirk: “Joy be yours–
and tranquillity, my friend.”

McCoy: “And peace and harmony.
Are you of the body?”

Kirk: “The body is one.”
Blessed be the body
and health to all of its parts.
My friends…
What is your theory, Mr. Spock?”

Spock: “This is a soulless society, Captain.
It has no spirit, no spark.
All is peace and tranquillity–
the peace of the factory, the tranquillity of the machine,
all parts working in unison.”

(“Return of the Archons”, Star Trek)

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By: Grasshopper https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/12/a-mormon-image-the-all-seeing-eye/#comment-11497 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=166#comment-11497 Pagan, schmagan. I’ll stick with Joseph on this one: “We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true ‘Mormons.'”

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