Comments on: Nephites, Lamanites, and Native Americans https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/11/nephites-lamanites-and-native-americans/ Truth Will Prevail Mon, 06 Aug 2018 17:29:28 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.8 By: Mark B. https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/11/nephites-lamanites-and-native-americans/#comment-86871 Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:10:29 +0000 /?p=61#comment-86871 The Book of Mormon does not contain a genealogy of the Jaredites prior to Jared. The story begins at the time the languages of the people were confounded (Gen. 11:6-9), which appears in the Bible just after the flood, but there’s no indication which of Noah’s sons was the ancestor of Jared.

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By: PW Parsons https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/11/nephites-lamanites-and-native-americans/#comment-86869 Tue, 02 Aug 2005 15:56:21 +0000 /?p=61#comment-86869 I am confused about the Jaredites. What son of Noah did they descend from?

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By: Spam https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/11/nephites-lamanites-and-native-americans/#comment-81091 Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:36:06 +0000 /?p=61#comment-81091 Spam

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By: Lorin https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/11/nephites-lamanites-and-native-americans/#comment-70380 Tue, 10 May 2005 00:38:57 +0000 /?p=61#comment-70380 I would like to point out the futility of the present arguments by making some simplistic, qualitative calculations:

Suppose we take 25 years per generation. Then there would be roughly 100 generations between now and when Lehi was supposed to have come. So let us use that number.

Let us suppose we have a million people in the Americas 100 generations
ago (actually assume a million minus one). And let us assume that the
Lehi party was composed of one person. In other words, assume the Lehi
party of one brought the total population to one million people.

Now let us assume that through these 100 generation the population size
doesn’t change and that there is random intermarriage or mixing in the
population. So today the sample size is still one million people. The
births and deaths randomly keep the population constant.

Now, a person of that sample population today will receive their nuclear
DNA from two parents, four grandparent, eight grandparents, and so
forth. If we continue this to the 100th generation back, this one person
would have received their nuclear DNA from roughly 10-to-the-power-of-30
ancestors. But this is so large compared to the fact that the person
today could only have one million ancestors 100 generations ago, we must
conclude simply that one person of the sample today (because of mixing)
is a descendant of all one million of the original population. There
has been a thorough mixing and equal chances of lines dying out. So all
one million of the people-sample today are descendants of any one of the
original sample (of a million people) 100 generations ago. That is, all
of the one million today will probably be the descendant of the one
person of the Lehi party (an everyone else too, of course.)

That is the case for nuclear DNA, which determines descent. Now what
about mtDNA? If I understand the situation, one person of the sample
today can receive their mtDNA only from ONE of the original population,
since it comes only through the mother. A person can only have one
mother’s mother’s, … of a particular generation. Thus if today we
test the mtDNA of one person of the modern sample we will have only one
chance in a million of finding the mtDNA of the original Lehi party of
one. If we test “thousands” of the modern population, if that
“thousands” is still small compared to the modern total population of a
million, we will still have a small chance of finding the mtDNA of the
original Lehi party of one. (Even if we found the one, it would
probably be thought of as a fluke or a mutation.)

I assume that the Lehi party represented a very small part of the
original population and that there has been thorough mixing. (See the
article “When Lehi’s party arrived, Did They Find Others in the Land?”
by John L. Sorenson in Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, vol. 1, no. 1,
fall 1992, pp. 1-34.)

Therefore I suggest, using the simplified reasoning above, my thought
experiment, that all of modern Amerinds could very well be descendants
of the original Lehi party and yet that the chances of proving whether
or not there even was a Lehi party by DNA is essentially nil.

So, despite the exciting prospects of DNA measurements, we come out the
same door we came in. DNA will probably tell us nothing about the BofM.

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By: Blake https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/11/nephites-lamanites-and-native-americans/#comment-70373 Mon, 09 May 2005 23:20:53 +0000 /?p=61#comment-70373 Kaimi: See my article coming in the next Sunstone and the FARMS Review 16:2 (2004). You can link to the FARMS Review here: http://farms.byu.edu/publications/reviewvolume.php?volume=16&number=2

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By: Blake https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/11/nephites-lamanites-and-native-americans/#comment-70371 Mon, 09 May 2005 23:17:51 +0000 /?p=61#comment-70371 How well read or sophisticated is your friend? What level of response would work? Scholarly, scientific, popular?

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By: Wendy Splawn https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/11/nephites-lamanites-and-native-americans/#comment-70358 Mon, 09 May 2005 22:20:46 +0000 /?p=61#comment-70358 I have a friend who could be interested in the church but the person is not sure about the origin, they feel that in order to understand the book of mormon, they must understand the origin first. Is there any direct reference that is proof that the lamanites are indeed the ancestors of the american indians or any historical references that might be helpful? i have been looking on the internet but have not found any direct answers of weather or not it is true. Please, if you have anything that could help it would be very much appreciated.
Thank you,
Wendy

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By: Anonymous https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/11/nephites-lamanites-and-native-americans/#comment-52051 Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:45:50 +0000 /?p=61#comment-52051 By: Dave https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/11/nephites-lamanites-and-native-americans/#comment-51753 Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:42:48 +0000 /?p=61#comment-51753 Wow, this is a real blast from the past, but it happens to be one of my favorite exchanges from “T&S: The Early Years.” It’s nice some newer bloggers have rediscovered it. I didn’t think anyone actually ever went back and read archives!

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By: Sheri Lynn https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/11/nephites-lamanites-and-native-americans/#comment-51732 Sat, 19 Feb 2005 20:22:58 +0000 /?p=61#comment-51732 I’m 1/16 Cherokee–not formally affiliated with the tribe–and I felt the Spirit during my PB at the part where my tribe is named. I am certain of my Lehite ancestry, though it may be so diluted genetically that it is undetectable. I don’t really care. Direct revelation trumps reason, or I’d still be a Frisbeeite.

(Frisbeeites believe that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and you can’t get it down.)

(Now I know the truth: the roof has three levels.)

Hi, Crane. :-)

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By: annegb https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/11/nephites-lamanites-and-native-americans/#comment-51684 Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:38:45 +0000 /?p=61#comment-51684 Welcome, Crane, I assume that like me, you stumbled onto this blog. It may appear that people are ignoring you at first (maybe because they are), :) but I have loved it. Hope you stay.

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By: Crane https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/11/nephites-lamanites-and-native-americans/#comment-51674 Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:57:25 +0000 /?p=61#comment-51674 I am 1/8 mohawk indian and i am told i have my facial features that are semetic and you would find from the middle east. My nose is round slightly crooked, i got high cheekbones,high forehead and wide eyes. As for my beard, since the natives cant really grow one i can’t that well myself but that mightve been part of the distinction that god made between the nephites and lamanites so they were seperated. I do believe that the indians are descendants of the lamanites, but also carry the blood of the nephites, mulekites and proboly the jaredites.. since the peoples described as inhabiting the land when the lehites arrived were the remenants of the jaredites.

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By: Nate https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2003/11/nephites-lamanites-and-native-americans/#comment-10903 Mon, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 /?p=61#comment-10903 Let me give this equine carcass one more kick.

I think it is ridiculous to suggest that the Historian is somehow being dishonest when he suggests that informed Mormon opinion subscribes to a limited geography model and multiple ancestry model. Give me a break!

Yes it is true that lots and lots of Mormons think that the Book of Mormon provides the only account for Native American ancestry. Yes it is true that there are probably a whole lot of general authorities that subscribe to this view. So what?

It is not a textually or historically defensible position. Nor is it theologically necessary in some way. Why insist on it?

Finally, it is worth remembering that the Historian’s letter was written to a New Testament scholar at Harvard Divinity School who was unaware of the shape of Mormon scholarlly discussion. It is hardly disingenous or dishonest to tell him what Mormon scholars think on the subject, especially since the professor was being asked to comment as a scholar. The positions taken by the Historian have been common places of serious study of the Book of Mormon since Sidney Sperry’s work in the 1940s for crying out loud!

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