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	<title>Comments on: A post-Columbian setting for the Book of Mormon</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/07/a-post-columbian-setting-for-the-book-of-mormon/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/07/a-post-columbian-setting-for-the-book-of-mormon/#comment-316811</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 19:22:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=12958#comment-316811</guid>
		<description>The Book of Mormon has lots to say about working gold but I couldn&#039;t recall any references to mining.  Turns out there is one.

  Mosiah 11:23 And they did awork in all manner of bore, and they did make gold, and silver, and ciron, and dbrass, and all manner of metals; and they did dig it out of the earth; wherefore, they did cast up mighty heaps of earth to get ore, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of copper. And they did ework all manner of fine work. 

Per hypothesis, this is in the &#039;historical&#039; section of the book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Book of Mormon has lots to say about working gold but I couldn&#8217;t recall any references to mining.  Turns out there is one.</p>
<p>  Mosiah 11:23 And they did awork in all manner of bore, and they did make gold, and silver, and ciron, and dbrass, and all manner of metals; and they did dig it out of the earth; wherefore, they did cast up mighty heaps of earth to get ore, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of copper. And they did ework all manner of fine work. </p>
<p>Per hypothesis, this is in the &#8216;historical&#8217; section of the book.</p>
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		<title>By: Rameumptom</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/07/a-post-columbian-setting-for-the-book-of-mormon/#comment-316810</link>
		<dc:creator>Rameumptom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 16:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=12958#comment-316810</guid>
		<description>There are huge problems with your theory of a post-Columbian history for the book of Mormon.  Brant Gardner has given many examples of how Nephite events fit in perfectly with Mayan lifestyles, politics, etc.  Joseph Smith couldn&#039;t have guessed huge cities made with cement, or even a people with a written language, given the conditions of the Natives he would have known about circa 1829.

If we are going to doubt the historicity of Nephi, et al, due to issues such as horses, then why should we believe Joseph Smith at all?  Why do you believe that an angel Moroni appeared to him, yet that same being could not have lived 1600 years before?  This seems to be a non sequitur.  Either Moroni really visited Joseph and was a mortal back when he said he was, or he didn&#039;t do any of this.

Even those of us who believe in the Documentary Hypothesis of the Bible believe in some historicity.  Biblical minimalists have discounted King David for decades, even though the Merneptah Stele and other evidence is available (including current claims that his palace in Jerusalem has been located).  The minimalists have a case because of little evidence for David&#039;s existence, and some evidence that contradicts the Bible&#039;s story.  The Bible basically shows two ways in which Saul met David: 1) to be his musician, and 2) when he slew Goliath.  Both stories cannot easily coincide and be true, at least not how the Bible places them.  But that does not mean nothing happened, or that there is no historical person named David.

The Book of Mormon is not a history, but there are historical aspects in it.  The evidences of ancient things inside it are impressive, and many were not known in Joseph Smith&#039;s day or in the Post-Columbian era.

As for the Documentary Hypothesis, it does not necessarily state that Moses never wrote anything, but that the 5 books of Moses as we now have them were written and edited later by J, E, P, D, and R.  John Sorensen suggested that the Plates of Laban may have been the source for E, and the original manuscript of the BoM only mentions the &quot;book of Moses&quot; not the &quot;five books of Moses&quot; as it was changed to later.

Unlike Adam, I do not think there&#039;s much to talk about concerning this Post-Columbian concept, as there really isn&#039;t any real evidence for a theory to emerge, just a hypothesis remains.  We may as well adopt the inspired fiction hypothesis, as it is easier to swallow than this concept (IMO).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are huge problems with your theory of a post-Columbian history for the book of Mormon.  Brant Gardner has given many examples of how Nephite events fit in perfectly with Mayan lifestyles, politics, etc.  Joseph Smith couldn&#8217;t have guessed huge cities made with cement, or even a people with a written language, given the conditions of the Natives he would have known about circa 1829.</p>
<p>If we are going to doubt the historicity of Nephi, et al, due to issues such as horses, then why should we believe Joseph Smith at all?  Why do you believe that an angel Moroni appeared to him, yet that same being could not have lived 1600 years before?  This seems to be a non sequitur.  Either Moroni really visited Joseph and was a mortal back when he said he was, or he didn&#8217;t do any of this.</p>
<p>Even those of us who believe in the Documentary Hypothesis of the Bible believe in some historicity.  Biblical minimalists have discounted King David for decades, even though the Merneptah Stele and other evidence is available (including current claims that his palace in Jerusalem has been located).  The minimalists have a case because of little evidence for David&#8217;s existence, and some evidence that contradicts the Bible&#8217;s story.  The Bible basically shows two ways in which Saul met David: 1) to be his musician, and 2) when he slew Goliath.  Both stories cannot easily coincide and be true, at least not how the Bible places them.  But that does not mean nothing happened, or that there is no historical person named David.</p>
<p>The Book of Mormon is not a history, but there are historical aspects in it.  The evidences of ancient things inside it are impressive, and many were not known in Joseph Smith&#8217;s day or in the Post-Columbian era.</p>
<p>As for the Documentary Hypothesis, it does not necessarily state that Moses never wrote anything, but that the 5 books of Moses as we now have them were written and edited later by J, E, P, D, and R.  John Sorensen suggested that the Plates of Laban may have been the source for E, and the original manuscript of the BoM only mentions the &#8220;book of Moses&#8221; not the &#8220;five books of Moses&#8221; as it was changed to later.</p>
<p>Unlike Adam, I do not think there&#8217;s much to talk about concerning this Post-Columbian concept, as there really isn&#8217;t any real evidence for a theory to emerge, just a hypothesis remains.  We may as well adopt the inspired fiction hypothesis, as it is easier to swallow than this concept (IMO).</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Green</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/07/a-post-columbian-setting-for-the-book-of-mormon/#comment-316795</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jul 2010 21:20:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=12958#comment-316795</guid>
		<description>Smb, why would you think that Mann had any connection to 2012? He&#039;s a science journalist who&#039;s won a bunch of awards for his work. Seriously, where are you getting that idea from? 

Popular works that receive major media attention do get noticed in associated academic fields. All I have access to at the moment is Google Scholar, but a quick search finds at least two relevant academic reviews:

Calloway, C. G. &quot;Julian Granberry: The Americas That Might Have Been: Native American Social Systems through Time; Charles C. Mann: 1491: New Revelations of the Americas before Columbus.&quot; Ethnohistory 54 (2007): 195-196.

Johansen, B. E. &quot;1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus. By Charles C. Mann.&quot; American Indian Culture and Research Journal 29 (2005): 121-123.

I&#039;m sure there are others. My point is that if you want to evaluate claims like Mann&#039;s, published academic commentary of one form or another is going to be far more useful than Wikipedia or Amazon reviews.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Smb, why would you think that Mann had any connection to 2012? He&#8217;s a science journalist who&#8217;s won a bunch of awards for his work. Seriously, where are you getting that idea from? </p>
<p>Popular works that receive major media attention do get noticed in associated academic fields. All I have access to at the moment is Google Scholar, but a quick search finds at least two relevant academic reviews:</p>
<p>Calloway, C. G. &#8220;Julian Granberry: The Americas That Might Have Been: Native American Social Systems through Time; Charles C. Mann: 1491: New Revelations of the Americas before Columbus.&#8221; Ethnohistory 54 (2007): 195-196.</p>
<p>Johansen, B. E. &#8220;1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus. By Charles C. Mann.&#8221; American Indian Culture and Research Journal 29 (2005): 121-123.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure there are others. My point is that if you want to evaluate claims like Mann&#8217;s, published academic commentary of one form or another is going to be far more useful than Wikipedia or Amazon reviews.</p>
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		<title>By: smb</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/07/a-post-columbian-setting-for-the-book-of-mormon/#comment-316785</link>
		<dc:creator>smb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jul 2010 03:43:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=12958#comment-316785</guid>
		<description>Is this Mann guy the creative genius that brought us 2012? Because, wow. (JG, scholarly journals don&#039;t usually review pop-science journalistic treatments--I&#039;ll be curious and impressed if there are actually reviews.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is this Mann guy the creative genius that brought us 2012? Because, wow. (JG, scholarly journals don&#8217;t usually review pop-science journalistic treatments&#8211;I&#8217;ll be curious and impressed if there are actually reviews.)</p>
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		<title>By: thomas mcfall</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/07/a-post-columbian-setting-for-the-book-of-mormon/#comment-316717</link>
		<dc:creator>thomas mcfall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=12958#comment-316717</guid>
		<description>if i was going to try to literally support the bom and also it&#039;s religious value in the absence of any grounded foundation in history i would postulate that the events took place in another dimension ( one might think of the upper astral world beyond the &quot;white light&quot; at death and that all events actually took place in this world and not on earth.  is there any evidence for this ?  of course not.  if one believes in the christ then one must believe in miracles.  if one believes in miracles then there is nothing in the bom that is not acceptable.  it could be an astral world experience or one on this earth. the whole basis of the christian worldview is based on miracles so why worry if zarahemla is in the state of tabasco, mexico or beyond the &quot;white light&quot; after death or in western new york ?  the point of the lds church is the improvement of the soul and not a search for horse bones in kansas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>if i was going to try to literally support the bom and also it&#8217;s religious value in the absence of any grounded foundation in history i would postulate that the events took place in another dimension ( one might think of the upper astral world beyond the &#8220;white light&#8221; at death and that all events actually took place in this world and not on earth.  is there any evidence for this ?  of course not.  if one believes in the christ then one must believe in miracles.  if one believes in miracles then there is nothing in the bom that is not acceptable.  it could be an astral world experience or one on this earth. the whole basis of the christian worldview is based on miracles so why worry if zarahemla is in the state of tabasco, mexico or beyond the &#8220;white light&#8221; after death or in western new york ?  the point of the lds church is the improvement of the soul and not a search for horse bones in kansas.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/07/a-post-columbian-setting-for-the-book-of-mormon/#comment-316705</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jul 2010 05:27:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=12958#comment-316705</guid>
		<description>#48: Charles Mann is not an academic, he is a journalist with an agenda. What he wrote was based on his working with two college professors. He has a web site avaliable outlining his writing of the book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#48: Charles Mann is not an academic, he is a journalist with an agenda. What he wrote was based on his working with two college professors. He has a web site avaliable outlining his writing of the book.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Green</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/07/a-post-columbian-setting-for-the-book-of-mormon/#comment-316704</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jul 2010 04:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=12958#comment-316704</guid>
		<description>Reviews in academic journals are not at all similar to Amazon customer reviews. Academic reviews often entail one of the journal editors, a highly experienced scholar, commissioning another scholar experienced in the book&#039;s subfield to write a review based on extensive research in the same field. If the editor has found the right reviewer, one academic book review will tell you much more than 250 customer reviews possibly could.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reviews in academic journals are not at all similar to Amazon customer reviews. Academic reviews often entail one of the journal editors, a highly experienced scholar, commissioning another scholar experienced in the book&#8217;s subfield to write a review based on extensive research in the same field. If the editor has found the right reviewer, one academic book review will tell you much more than 250 customer reviews possibly could.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/07/a-post-columbian-setting-for-the-book-of-mormon/#comment-316700</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jul 2010 00:18:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=12958#comment-316700</guid>
		<description>#46: Amazon.com has 250 reviews.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#46: Amazon.com has 250 reviews.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Green</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/07/a-post-columbian-setting-for-the-book-of-mormon/#comment-316699</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:36:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=12958#comment-316699</guid>
		<description>So at the moment we have pop science dueling with Wikipedia for credibility. This is stupid.

There is a well-known solution to this conundrum. Someone with access to academic databases--I&#039;m away from my office at the moment, unfortunately--should look up reviews of Mann&#039;s book by competent scholars that were published in respectable journals. What do people who know what they&#039;re talking about say about Mann in print?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So at the moment we have pop science dueling with Wikipedia for credibility. This is stupid.</p>
<p>There is a well-known solution to this conundrum. Someone with access to academic databases&#8211;I&#8217;m away from my office at the moment, unfortunately&#8211;should look up reviews of Mann&#8217;s book by competent scholars that were published in respectable journals. What do people who know what they&#8217;re talking about say about Mann in print?</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/07/a-post-columbian-setting-for-the-book-of-mormon/#comment-316693</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 21:55:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=12958#comment-316693</guid>
		<description>#44: &quot;(The) abrupt rise of Cahokia, near modern St. Louis, the largest city north of the Rio Grande. Population estimates vary from at least 15,000 to 100,000&quot;.
The above is from Mann&#039;s timeline in his book. IMO__this never happened. The mound people would be part of this culture.
Wikipedia has a nice write up on Cahokia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#44: &#8220;(The) abrupt rise of Cahokia, near modern St. Louis, the largest city north of the Rio Grande. Population estimates vary from at least 15,000 to 100,000&#8243;.<br />
The above is from Mann&#8217;s timeline in his book. IMO__this never happened. The mound people would be part of this culture.<br />
Wikipedia has a nice write up on Cahokia.</p>
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