Comments on: Just One More Cigarette

By: Craig H.

Craig H. — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:37:18 +0000

Yes, I might have paid more attention to it Wilfried; I alluded to it regarding the branch president in Brussels who was expected by everyone and all to do everything, and we both know more like him. There was a lot of pressure on members, especially in small branches, but yes also when someone else’s goals weren’t being met, and a separate post could be devoted to that. I’m sure you’ve got a lot of ideas!

By: Wilfried

Wilfried — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:29:50 +0000

In the same vein, sometimes the excessive burden of responsibility and of guilt is passed on to members of the local unit. Some missionaries (or the mission president himself), when results are not reached as set (are they ever?), may shift the cause to the members who are made to believe they don't do enough of their share or do not have enough faith, etc. It's pretty awkward to hear a 20-year old missionary from Utah, who has been in this European mission branch for just a few weeks, preach that kind of sermon to seasoned members who often have already endured so much for their membership. For some members that kind of approach may lead to their discouragement and even inactivity. A vicious circle! Indeed, a healthy dose of insight and a balanced perspective are welcome in missionary work.

By: Craig H.

Craig H. — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:20:31 +0000

As Wilfried pointed out, a person can be touched by even the least prepared or sincere missionary, because it’s not all dependent on the missionary. And that’s what I’m really trying to get at; we can talk all day long about what is or isn’t a sales technique, and whether they’re inherently wrong, and whether missionary work is inherently sales work because after all you are at some level trying to persuade others, but the real point of the post is the excessive burden of responsibility the missionary can take on him or herself.

By: John A. Coltharp

John A. Coltharp — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:00:54 +0000

On second thought, I guess it depends on how you define “sales technique.” When I hear the phrase, I usually think of manipulation, deception, or misleading a person. But I suppose an honest explanation of the benefits of something could be considered a sales technique.

By: John A. Coltharp

John A. Coltharp — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 07:51:03 +0000

In response to Elder Packer’s quote, I still wonder about sales techniques. True, the Holy Ghost is what converts a person, and the Holy Ghost may touch that person while they read the Book of Mormon…. but don’t we also want the Holy Ghost to touch that person while the missionary is speaking as well? I’m wondering how much Spirit felt during the usage of “sales techniques.” Any thoughts?

I think superficial missionaries are easy to spot a mile away. Investigators can tell the difference between a missionary who is speaking from their heart about something they actually care about and are passionate about, and a missionary who is trying to “sell” something. I think the latter may often get more baptisms, but as President Hinckley said during a broadcast while I was on my mission, “it’s the net result that matters.” These sales-pitched investigators may not remain active as long, since a sales pitch approach is probably less inspiring, and afterall, it’s the inspiration–the Holy Ghost–that makes for a lasting impression and a true conversion.

By: Bookslinger

Bookslinger — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 07:35:10 +0000

Here’s the relevant chapter describing “divorcing yourself from the outcome” (or detachment) in the sales paradigm, free download:
http://www.samegamenewrules.com/pdf/SGNR_Chapter_Four.pdf

By: Bookslinger

Bookslinger — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 07:04:07 +0000

Craig: Uh… no, “divorcing yourself from the outcome” is not manipulation. Not all sales techniques are manipulatory. There really _are_ righteous sales techniques. One book that has that philosophy is Same Game New Rules, by Bill Caskey. http://www.samegamenewrules.com There really is such as thing as “righteous selling” that fully respects the agency of the prospect/investigator. Sales don’t have to be manipulative.

Was Ammon being manipulative when he told King Lamoni he wanted to hang out for a few years and work for him? No. But was hanging out and tending (4-legged) sheep really what Ammon had in mind? No again.

I imagine a courtier whispering to Lamoni during that first encounter: “Don’t trust him, oh King! He’s up to something. He’s just a Nephite after all. He’s just going to try to convert you to those silly Nephite beliefs and traditions. That’s all he’s here for!”

And maybe during that first discussion the next day (after the sheep watering arm-cutting-off incident) King Lamoni may have asked : “You didn’t come here just to tend sheep, did you?”. Or maybe Lamoni asked that question later in the week over dinner. Ammon would have said “uhhh, no, I didn’t.” But, Lamoni, now having been converted to the Lord, would have said “That’s okay. I’m so glad you came!”

Like the Bible says, they can’t believe unless they hear, and they can’t hear unless someone goes and preaches. You can’t just go out and only do service and hope that people will intitiate investigating on their own. Too many people wait for the ball to bounce their way first. Most people need an invitation to investigate.

Even Elder Packer once said that “legitimate sales techniques” are appropriate in getting people to listen and read. There is no wrong reason to read the scriptures. The only “convincing” that needs to be done is to convince people to investigate, read, ponder, and pray. The conversion is always up to the Holy Ghost. And the commitment is (or should be) up to the individual. The problem is when missionaries take the pressure they receive through the mission/church hierarchy and apply it all the way through the process including the committment to baptism.

One guy used the phrase “to elderize” people, in reference to using the “power of persuasion,” or the power of personality, instead of letting the Spirit testify and convert.

In my opinion, there’s no sin in using any legitimate or righteous “sales technique” to get people to investigate, read, ponder and pray. The sin is in any mental/emotional/psychological or other coercion pertaining to baptism and membership committments.

One highly successfull sister missionary, who was a convert herself, said: “Sure, I had a testimony when I was baptized. But those elders still were awful cute.”

I now understand where your mission president was coming from. If someone voluntarily gives all the right answers to the interview questions, and verbally makes all the right committments without any coercion, and actively _requests_ baptism, they shouldn’t be denied baptism unless the Spirit specifically tells the interviewer not to.

(Interview questions have been modified over the years, and sometimes from mission-to-mission, so that actual number of weeks “clean” in terms of WoW, and number of consecutive Sundays attended are taken into account.)

Our mission recently had a case where the missionaries knew, or had good reason to believe, that an investigator was not keeping the word of wisdom, and lied about it. But the investigator said he was keeping it, and requested baptism. A counselor to the mission president even performed the interview. But it’s kind of like a temple recommend interview, where the bishop is supposed to go by what the person says, and if they give the right answers, poof, they get the ticket, even if the bishop suspects otherwise.

Go back to the Heber J. Grant PH/RS manual, and read the chapter where someone who was excommunicated requested rebaptism, and HJG as a member of the 12 was vetoing it. Eventually, HJG came around and told President Taylor: “I’d baptize the devil if he requested it.”

I remember a case in my mission where I thought a person was needlessly baptized, but he turned out to be a key stepping stone for one of his friends to join the church. The Lord is very merciful, and He is in charge. I think the Lord has been and will be very merciful towards person “A” in his inactivity because “A” was necessary in the conversion of person “B”.

Like Elder Oaks and Nelson taught, the church has to teach the standards, but the exceptions are up to the Lord. It just may turn out that in some cases, the Lord might not want earthly problems with the Word of Wisdom to interfere with someone’s progression on the other side of the veil, and the Lord might want that person baptized before they die instead of having to wait untold number of years for a proxy baptism.

Sorry, I ramble.

By: Craig H.

Craig H. — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:10:40 +0000

Bookslinger, so even that was a sales technique! Good grief, I can’t escape them. Well, at least it didn’t feel that way, it wasn’t a conscious tactic. I would have felt less comfortable if I thought of it as an attempt to manipulate.

By: Craig H.

Craig H. — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:08:14 +0000

Interesting JT, but the outlook can change again, I’ve learned. Still, let’s hope that holds, and the emphasis probably on the serving, because that’s what there’s probably most time to do. Hard to warn and teach if few people let you do so during all those working hours, And does the sense of satisfaction have to be equated with thousands of baptisms? I’d think the satisfaction was itself enough.

By: Bookslinger

Bookslinger — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:02:14 +0000

Ray Tak Swenson:

I have come to the conclusion that the real church where most people are going to receive the Gospel is in the Spirit World, where they won’t have the distractions of [....] The Church here on earth is more of an outpost, a small minority that is anchoring one corner of a massive endeavor that will become unitary at the Second Coming and Resurrection.

Amen. I also like to think that missionary encounters in this life will be remembered in the future in the spirit-world; and those memories will be useful in A) letting people know that the Lord cared enough about them to send missionaries to them with "clues" at least, so that they at least had a chance. "Don't you remember those two boys in suits and black name tags? I sent them to try to reach you." B) serve as starting points of an investigation in the spirit world. The Holy Ghost works in the spirit world too, and will "bring to remembrance" things from the mortal world. If a deceased person prays in the spirit world, the Holy Ghost can bring to remembrance those encounters with the missionaries, which can trigger the deceased person to go look up "mormon missionaries" or equivalent in the spirit world. Craig H:

I quit trying to convince everyone, and tried to be more informational, especially to those who seemed unhappy where they were. But even there I stopped pushing: one person wanted to learn more about the church, strictly informationally, and so we did it that way (it felt odd). By the end, she wanted to be baptized–the day before I went home. What a great way to end! Then it fell through of course.

That's actually a sales technique called "divorcing yourself from the outcome." Present the product with information and let the prospect decide. And it actually works better because there's less pressure and makes the salesman more confident. That confidence and lack of pressure allows the prospect to feel more confident in receiving and considering the information. I try to do that in my book-slinging as I believe it to be important. I always try to frame my info offers as: "would you like..." as opposed to "Here! [shove material in face] Please take this." Jinny:

What finally made it all clear for me was realizing that the majority of people Christ interacted with didn’t believe or convert.

Same with all the prophets and major missionaries in the scriptures. Even with Ammon, more Lamanites did not convert than those who did. (The converts were outnumbered and had to flee to Nephite-land.) Noah didn't have much success, etc. The biblical apostles had thousands of converts on Pentecost, but even those were in a minority. The branches that Paul set up were small minorities too. Most prophets and missionaries in the scriptures seemed to make more enemies than friends. Even in this dispensation, when we think of Wilford Woodruff baptizing thousands, there were many more times that many who were mad at him. Lupita:

I still have dreams where I have to return as a missionary. They are not pleasant ones.

I don't have them any more, but in the past I used to have dreams where I was in a previous stage of life. In high school I sometimes dreamed I was in grade-school. After college I sometimes dreamed I was back in college. After my mission (which was post-college) I sometimes dreamed I was back in the mission. I don't know (and didn't then) whether in the dream I had "gone back" or whether I was "still in". They weren't nightmares, but they were unpleasant and frustrating. I suppose the analysis is that I still needed to "process" those periods or that I felt I had left things unlearned or undone. rk:

I remember coming home some days and thinking about what a privilege it was to be the first person to tell people about the gospel for the first time in their mortal existence. They may not have been ready to accept what we taught, but I felt the Lord was pleased with my effort.

See my above reply to Ray Tak. The benefits will be more observable in the spirit world. a) they'll feel grateful the Lord cared enough to send you, b) grateful to you that you took the time and effort to go and make the contacts, etc. c) It will be a memory that will have other uses for them in the spirit world, where the Holy Ghost can influence them to focus on that memory and give it consideration. craig H
Melinda, it’s interesting that even in your mission the cry was “more, more!”
Pressure is a leadership technique. A _little_ pressure is good, but can be taken to extremes. I think it took into the 1990's for the GA's to get a full picture of what that pressure was leading to (ie, 100's of thousands of bogus baptisms in Latin America, ie, John Dehlin's story), and until the early 2000's for President Hinkley to fully implement management style changes through the GAs and mission presidencies.