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	<title>Comments on: Gospel Principles Lesson One</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/01/gospel-principles-lesson-one/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: TinMan</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/01/gospel-principles-lesson-one/#comment-306159</link>
		<dc:creator>TinMan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 05:16:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10817#comment-306159</guid>
		<description>Singularity:

I too, have struggled with the &quot;outside source&quot; counsel in the CN article and the new manuals introduction.  Especially given the subject matter.  

I am sure it is incredibly difficult to &quot;write&quot; a manual that can be used in the smallest branch in Lower Swabovia as well as in the largest ward on the East Bench of Salt Lake.  And then to say basically, &quot;Teach from the manual, all you need is here,&quot; only compounds the challenge.

I see the new manuals as a great tool to generate discussions about the scriptures.  And to explore meanings for scriptures that you may not have thought about before.  It is going to be an interesting couple of years.

Do you think that generally speaking, it will be harder for Relief Society teachers to teach from this new manual, or for Priesthood teachers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Singularity:</p>
<p>I too, have struggled with the &#8220;outside source&#8221; counsel in the CN article and the new manuals introduction.  Especially given the subject matter.  </p>
<p>I am sure it is incredibly difficult to &#8220;write&#8221; a manual that can be used in the smallest branch in Lower Swabovia as well as in the largest ward on the East Bench of Salt Lake.  And then to say basically, &#8220;Teach from the manual, all you need is here,&#8221; only compounds the challenge.</p>
<p>I see the new manuals as a great tool to generate discussions about the scriptures.  And to explore meanings for scriptures that you may not have thought about before.  It is going to be an interesting couple of years.</p>
<p>Do you think that generally speaking, it will be harder for Relief Society teachers to teach from this new manual, or for Priesthood teachers?</p>
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		<title>By: Julie M. Smith</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/01/gospel-principles-lesson-one/#comment-306146</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie M. Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 22:25:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10817#comment-306146</guid>
		<description>Singularity, perhaps with hindsight you can see how your earlier comments came across and why they provoked the reaction that they did.  Your latest comment is much better and, I might note, quite interesting.

I can&#039;t read anyone&#039;s minds, but I don&#039;t think the ban on &quot;please read along in Alma . . .&quot; during sacrament meeting has anything to do with our conversation here.  Every effort I&#039;ve seen at reining in outside sources has specifically mentioned the scriptures as THE place to go instead.  I believe (just my opinion, though) that the &quot;please read along&quot; ban has to do with the nature of a worship service being distinct from a Sunday School lesson.

I don&#039;t think the intro the GP manual says anything different re this topic than any other recent manual.  I do think the CN article goes a little farther, but I&#039;m disinclined to give it that much weight, given that when the leadership wants to reach the Saints, they don&#039;t do it through unsigned articles in the CN, which the vast majority of members never even see.  I do think that article is a response to the new GP manual, which at first blush might seem &quot;boring&quot; or &quot;basic&quot; and might send people googling for some juicy Parley P. Pratt quotes to spice things up.  After teaching my lesson this week, I feel that the very basic doctrine we covered and the very basic questions I asked led to a good experience, almost entirely because of the testimony-filled comments of the members of the class.  

I have always tried to be extremely careful to stay *very* orthodox in what doctrine I teach.  (Those who have been reading my posts here for a long time might be on the floor laughing, but I consider a blog an appropriate place for crazy speculation, so I do that here.  Not at church.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Singularity, perhaps with hindsight you can see how your earlier comments came across and why they provoked the reaction that they did.  Your latest comment is much better and, I might note, quite interesting.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t read anyone&#8217;s minds, but I don&#8217;t think the ban on &#8220;please read along in Alma . . .&#8221; during sacrament meeting has anything to do with our conversation here.  Every effort I&#8217;ve seen at reining in outside sources has specifically mentioned the scriptures as THE place to go instead.  I believe (just my opinion, though) that the &#8220;please read along&#8221; ban has to do with the nature of a worship service being distinct from a Sunday School lesson.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the intro the GP manual says anything different re this topic than any other recent manual.  I do think the CN article goes a little farther, but I&#8217;m disinclined to give it that much weight, given that when the leadership wants to reach the Saints, they don&#8217;t do it through unsigned articles in the CN, which the vast majority of members never even see.  I do think that article is a response to the new GP manual, which at first blush might seem &#8220;boring&#8221; or &#8220;basic&#8221; and might send people googling for some juicy Parley P. Pratt quotes to spice things up.  After teaching my lesson this week, I feel that the very basic doctrine we covered and the very basic questions I asked led to a good experience, almost entirely because of the testimony-filled comments of the members of the class.  </p>
<p>I have always tried to be extremely careful to stay *very* orthodox in what doctrine I teach.  (Those who have been reading my posts here for a long time might be on the floor laughing, but I consider a blog an appropriate place for crazy speculation, so I do that here.  Not at church.)</p>
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		<title>By: Singularity</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/01/gospel-principles-lesson-one/#comment-306144</link>
		<dc:creator>Singularity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 22:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Just to be clear (I&#039;m afraid I have not been as articulate as I wished), I am not critical of Julie&#039;s lesson at all. I think it was well within the spirit of what was intended by the manual and I think the introductory story from Fulghum was effective and relevant. I have used &quot;outside sources&quot; often in my teaching, finding the lessons benefit from some supplementation (rather than substitution--I appreciate the distinction).  My comment was more about the introduction to the manual and the editorial, both of which seem pretty clearly to discourage teachers from using the Internet or reading outside the four corners of the manual in preparing and teaching lessons in church classes.  I have the Teaching, No Greater Call book but am wondering if anyone sees the CN editorial and Intro to GP manual as a tightening of the policy about using outside sources.  One of President Monson&#039;s first pronouncements as Prophet was the prohibition of asking fellow church members to turn to their scriptures and read along during a Sacrament talk.  Church leaders appear to be concerned about exercising control to a fairly fine level of detail over what is said from authoritative positions at the local lever (i.e., from Sacrament meeting speakers, gospel doctrine teachers, and the like).  I truly did not intend to call anyone to repentance, appear holier-than-thou, or to be obnoxious.  I am new here, and I must say I have found the response I have received from fellow followers of the Savior somewhat surprising.  Maybe I can direct the conversation away from a discussion of the specific lesson Julie gave and make it more general: does anyone here think the CN editorial and introduction to the GP manual represent a shift in church policy about the use of outside sources? If so, how would you characterize the size of that shift?  Is it significant or minor? Will it affect in any way how you prepare your lessons going forward?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to be clear (I&#8217;m afraid I have not been as articulate as I wished), I am not critical of Julie&#8217;s lesson at all. I think it was well within the spirit of what was intended by the manual and I think the introductory story from Fulghum was effective and relevant. I have used &#8220;outside sources&#8221; often in my teaching, finding the lessons benefit from some supplementation (rather than substitution&#8211;I appreciate the distinction).  My comment was more about the introduction to the manual and the editorial, both of which seem pretty clearly to discourage teachers from using the Internet or reading outside the four corners of the manual in preparing and teaching lessons in church classes.  I have the Teaching, No Greater Call book but am wondering if anyone sees the CN editorial and Intro to GP manual as a tightening of the policy about using outside sources.  One of President Monson&#8217;s first pronouncements as Prophet was the prohibition of asking fellow church members to turn to their scriptures and read along during a Sacrament talk.  Church leaders appear to be concerned about exercising control to a fairly fine level of detail over what is said from authoritative positions at the local lever (i.e., from Sacrament meeting speakers, gospel doctrine teachers, and the like).  I truly did not intend to call anyone to repentance, appear holier-than-thou, or to be obnoxious.  I am new here, and I must say I have found the response I have received from fellow followers of the Savior somewhat surprising.  Maybe I can direct the conversation away from a discussion of the specific lesson Julie gave and make it more general: does anyone here think the CN editorial and introduction to the GP manual represent a shift in church policy about the use of outside sources? If so, how would you characterize the size of that shift?  Is it significant or minor? Will it affect in any way how you prepare your lessons going forward?</p>
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		<title>By: DavidH</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/01/gospel-principles-lesson-one/#comment-306142</link>
		<dc:creator>DavidH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:56:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10817#comment-306142</guid>
		<description>I think Singularity was being facetious in a sense.  Read literally, the Church News editorial could be construed to prohibit anything from being used outside of correlation materials.  And some &quot;by-the-book&quot; leaders will construe the instructions that way.  I live in a stake where stake leaders once criticized a relief society lesson because, in an attention getting opening, a teacher referred to something said on a popular talk show. (It was not an inappropriate or racy show or reference.) Really.  The leaders said that because it was not in the manual or in correlated materials, the reference should not have been used even as an opening.  And that was before the editorial in the Church News.  But I suppose the meaning and potential implementation of the CN editorial are beyond the scope of this thread.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Singularity was being facetious in a sense.  Read literally, the Church News editorial could be construed to prohibit anything from being used outside of correlation materials.  And some &#8220;by-the-book&#8221; leaders will construe the instructions that way.  I live in a stake where stake leaders once criticized a relief society lesson because, in an attention getting opening, a teacher referred to something said on a popular talk show. (It was not an inappropriate or racy show or reference.) Really.  The leaders said that because it was not in the manual or in correlated materials, the reference should not have been used even as an opening.  And that was before the editorial in the Church News.  But I suppose the meaning and potential implementation of the CN editorial are beyond the scope of this thread.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis Parshall</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/01/gospel-principles-lesson-one/#comment-306139</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:47:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10817#comment-306139</guid>
		<description>My comments are offered, by the way, as one who sat through a lesson last spring supposedly out of the Joseph Smith teachings, where the teacher spent a significant part of the time discussing revelations given to Merlin the Magician and outlining how the fall of King Arthur&#039;s Camelot came about because the people in his kingdom corrupted the temple ordinances.

Know that I&#039;m one who recognizes the difference between a teacher doing what was condemned by that unsigned Church News article and a teacher who engages her class with appropriate illustrations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My comments are offered, by the way, as one who sat through a lesson last spring supposedly out of the Joseph Smith teachings, where the teacher spent a significant part of the time discussing revelations given to Merlin the Magician and outlining how the fall of King Arthur&#8217;s Camelot came about because the people in his kingdom corrupted the temple ordinances.</p>
<p>Know that I&#8217;m one who recognizes the difference between a teacher doing what was condemned by that unsigned Church News article and a teacher who engages her class with appropriate illustrations.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie M. Smith</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/01/gospel-principles-lesson-one/#comment-306137</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie M. Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10817#comment-306137</guid>
		<description>Singularity, I am going to ignore abundant evidence to the contrary and assume that you are honestly curious and not aware of how incredibly obnoxious you sound.  To put it simply:  I do not think the counsel in the Church News means what you think it means.  Here&#039;s what the intro to the manual in question says:

&quot;If you have been called to teach a quorum or class using this book, do not substitute outside materials, however interesting they may be.  Stay true to the scriptures and the words in the book. As appropriate, use personal experiences and articles from Church magazines to supplement the lessons.  For more on this subject, see Teaching, No Greater Call, pages 50–59.&quot;

Let me break that down:
--Substitute means to exchange one thing for another.  If there had been material in the lesson that said &quot;use this for an introduction&quot; and I used the Fulghum story instead, that would be a substitution.  But the manual as written does not contain an introduction.  TNGC makes clear that lessons need introductions (&quot;attention getters&quot;).  We have been told repeatedly that we are not to read the lesson verbatim--to teach out of our hearts and not out of our books--and so obviously we would need to provide our own introductory material for this lesson.

--I believe the story is very much &quot;true&quot; to the scriptures and the manual in that it hits the same themes, particularly re coming closer to God by knowing Him.  

--I read this story and it had a huge impact on me.  I shared *my personal experience* with the Fulghum story when I taught the lesson.

--You&#039;ll note the reference to the Teaching, No Greater Call book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Singularity, I am going to ignore abundant evidence to the contrary and assume that you are honestly curious and not aware of how incredibly obnoxious you sound.  To put it simply:  I do not think the counsel in the Church News means what you think it means.  Here&#8217;s what the intro to the manual in question says:</p>
<p>&#8220;If you have been called to teach a quorum or class using this book, do not substitute outside materials, however interesting they may be.  Stay true to the scriptures and the words in the book. As appropriate, use personal experiences and articles from Church magazines to supplement the lessons.  For more on this subject, see Teaching, No Greater Call, pages 50–59.&#8221;</p>
<p>Let me break that down:<br />
&#8211;Substitute means to exchange one thing for another.  If there had been material in the lesson that said &#8220;use this for an introduction&#8221; and I used the Fulghum story instead, that would be a substitution.  But the manual as written does not contain an introduction.  TNGC makes clear that lessons need introductions (&#8220;attention getters&#8221;).  We have been told repeatedly that we are not to read the lesson verbatim&#8211;to teach out of our hearts and not out of our books&#8211;and so obviously we would need to provide our own introductory material for this lesson.</p>
<p>&#8211;I believe the story is very much &#8220;true&#8221; to the scriptures and the manual in that it hits the same themes, particularly re coming closer to God by knowing Him.  </p>
<p>&#8211;I read this story and it had a huge impact on me.  I shared *my personal experience* with the Fulghum story when I taught the lesson.</p>
<p>&#8211;You&#8217;ll note the reference to the Teaching, No Greater Call book.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis Parshall</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/01/gospel-principles-lesson-one/#comment-306136</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:39:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10817#comment-306136</guid>
		<description>Singularity, when you read Julie&#039;s lesson (assuming you went farther than the introductory paragraph), did you honestly feel that her lesson did not teach the facts, the spirit, the scripture, the purpose, outlined in the manual for that lesson? Did you feel she distorted the message, or scrapped part of the intended lesson in order to substitute a gospel hobby? If not, then the lesson was exactly what the curriculum people intended.

If, on the other hand, you didn&#039;t really read and consider the lesson, but instead jumped on the introductory paragraph with a pharisaical &quot;Ah, ha! She&#039;s breaking the rules! I&#039;m going to tell!&quot; then YOU are the one who is out of tune.

If someone in the class, not the teacher, had commented on a point in the lesson by saying, &quot;You know, before hearing the Restored Gospel I was all mixed up in my ideas of God -- almost as mixed up as Robert Fulghum said he was as a child when ... [summarize story],&quot; would you expect someone to jump up and say &quot;Stop! You can&#039;t say that! That isn&#039;t in the manual!&quot; or would you smile and nod and think, perhaps, about your own early misunderstanding about the nature of God? 

If you&#039;re a teacher, frankly, I suspect you bore the pants off everyone in your class, because if you practice what you preach, you read the manual word for word lest some unauthorized illustration creep in. That&#039;s no way to teach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Singularity, when you read Julie&#8217;s lesson (assuming you went farther than the introductory paragraph), did you honestly feel that her lesson did not teach the facts, the spirit, the scripture, the purpose, outlined in the manual for that lesson? Did you feel she distorted the message, or scrapped part of the intended lesson in order to substitute a gospel hobby? If not, then the lesson was exactly what the curriculum people intended.</p>
<p>If, on the other hand, you didn&#8217;t really read and consider the lesson, but instead jumped on the introductory paragraph with a pharisaical &#8220;Ah, ha! She&#8217;s breaking the rules! I&#8217;m going to tell!&#8221; then YOU are the one who is out of tune.</p>
<p>If someone in the class, not the teacher, had commented on a point in the lesson by saying, &#8220;You know, before hearing the Restored Gospel I was all mixed up in my ideas of God &#8212; almost as mixed up as Robert Fulghum said he was as a child when &#8230; [summarize story],&#8221; would you expect someone to jump up and say &#8220;Stop! You can&#8217;t say that! That isn&#8217;t in the manual!&#8221; or would you smile and nod and think, perhaps, about your own early misunderstanding about the nature of God? </p>
<p>If you&#8217;re a teacher, frankly, I suspect you bore the pants off everyone in your class, because if you practice what you preach, you read the manual word for word lest some unauthorized illustration creep in. That&#8217;s no way to teach.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/01/gospel-principles-lesson-one/#comment-306135</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:29:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10817#comment-306135</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not verboten, but it is really tacky, Singularity.  If you want to play holier than thou, at least have the guts to do it in declarative sentences rather than faux questions.  &quot;One wonders...&quot;   Ugh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not verboten, but it is really tacky, Singularity.  If you want to play holier than thou, at least have the guts to do it in declarative sentences rather than faux questions.  &#8220;One wonders&#8230;&#8221;   Ugh.</p>
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		<title>By: Singularity</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/01/gospel-principles-lesson-one/#comment-306134</link>
		<dc:creator>Singularity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:18:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10817#comment-306134</guid>
		<description>First let me apologize if my question seemed either a personal attack or a call to repentance. I did not intend it as either. The Church News editorial coming at the same time as the release of a new manual with new instructions (do they supersede what is in the Teaching, No Greater Call manual?) to avoid the use of any outside materials is of interest to me and I was wondering how church teachers this year might view those instructions.  I guess the Fulghum story could be a &quot;personal experience&quot; but it is the personal experience of Robert Fulghum not the teacher, so it is a bit of stretch to try to comply with the requirement through semantic gymnastics.  One wonders what &quot;outside material&quot; would not fall under the umbrella of &quot;personal experience&quot; if that is the touchstone.  Does the fact that the manual and the Church News (both published under the direction of the First Presidency) both prohibit the use of outside sources and emphasize reliance on the curriculum as produced through the inspired correlation process mean nothing? Do they affect, in any way, the manner in which you are preparing for and teaching your lessons this year?  Is this topic of discussion verboten?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First let me apologize if my question seemed either a personal attack or a call to repentance. I did not intend it as either. The Church News editorial coming at the same time as the release of a new manual with new instructions (do they supersede what is in the Teaching, No Greater Call manual?) to avoid the use of any outside materials is of interest to me and I was wondering how church teachers this year might view those instructions.  I guess the Fulghum story could be a &#8220;personal experience&#8221; but it is the personal experience of Robert Fulghum not the teacher, so it is a bit of stretch to try to comply with the requirement through semantic gymnastics.  One wonders what &#8220;outside material&#8221; would not fall under the umbrella of &#8220;personal experience&#8221; if that is the touchstone.  Does the fact that the manual and the Church News (both published under the direction of the First Presidency) both prohibit the use of outside sources and emphasize reliance on the curriculum as produced through the inspired correlation process mean nothing? Do they affect, in any way, the manner in which you are preparing for and teaching your lessons this year?  Is this topic of discussion verboten?</p>
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		<title>By: Julie M. Smith</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2010/01/gospel-principles-lesson-one/#comment-306131</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie M. Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:04:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10817#comment-306131</guid>
		<description>Singularity, I&#039;m having a hard time getting links to work today, but I&#039;d like to refer you to the chapter &quot;Looking for Lessons Everywhere&quot; in the (official, correlated) book _Teaching, No Greater Call.  I try really hard to follow the advice in that chapter in terms of always keeping my eyes and hears open for experiences and stories that illustrate gospel principles and then trying to be sensitive to the promptings of the Spirit regarding when and how to use those stories.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Singularity, I&#8217;m having a hard time getting links to work today, but I&#8217;d like to refer you to the chapter &#8220;Looking for Lessons Everywhere&#8221; in the (official, correlated) book _Teaching, No Greater Call.  I try really hard to follow the advice in that chapter in terms of always keeping my eyes and hears open for experiences and stories that illustrate gospel principles and then trying to be sensitive to the promptings of the Spirit regarding when and how to use those stories.</p>
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