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	<title>Comments on: December: Preparing for the Annual Sunday School Curriculum Reboot</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/12/december-preparing-for-the-annual-sunday-school-curriculum-reboot/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Jonovitch</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/12/december-preparing-for-the-annual-sunday-school-curriculum-reboot/#comment-304206</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonovitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Dec 2009 07:01:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10452#comment-304206</guid>
		<description>Oh, I am so glad to be rid of the D&amp;C/CH year.  Talk about cram-forcing scripture to fit the needs of a pre-determined lesson sequence!  Heaven forbid we actually study the scriptures themselves.  Ugh.  I&#039;m so glad to be teaching OT again.  

Jon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I am so glad to be rid of the D&amp;C/CH year.  Talk about cram-forcing scripture to fit the needs of a pre-determined lesson sequence!  Heaven forbid we actually study the scriptures themselves.  Ugh.  I&#8217;m so glad to be teaching OT again.  </p>
<p>Jon</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Hunter</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/12/december-preparing-for-the-annual-sunday-school-curriculum-reboot/#comment-303910</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 23:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10452#comment-303910</guid>
		<description>#12-  I agree, its really important to note that we do not study the OT or any other book of scripture in Sunday School. We use these texts to repeat stories about Mormon doctrine.  This is a real shame when it comes to the OT.  I am convinced that if we want to understand Christianity then we need to understand the OT as a Hebrew book and take the Hebrew tradition seriously on its own terms.  We tend to view Judaism as a failed proto-Christianity which ends up meaning that we don&#039;t take much from it or understand it in a meaningful way.

Dave- I like Brueggemann’s book very much, but it needed to be longer.  His list of publications on the OT is very long. I also am going to read Old Testament Theology: An Introduction. and The Prophetic Imagination among others.  Also I think Levinas&#039;s Talmudic Readings is a good bet too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#12-  I agree, its really important to note that we do not study the OT or any other book of scripture in Sunday School. We use these texts to repeat stories about Mormon doctrine.  This is a real shame when it comes to the OT.  I am convinced that if we want to understand Christianity then we need to understand the OT as a Hebrew book and take the Hebrew tradition seriously on its own terms.  We tend to view Judaism as a failed proto-Christianity which ends up meaning that we don&#8217;t take much from it or understand it in a meaningful way.</p>
<p>Dave- I like Brueggemann’s book very much, but it needed to be longer.  His list of publications on the OT is very long. I also am going to read Old Testament Theology: An Introduction. and The Prophetic Imagination among others.  Also I think Levinas&#8217;s Talmudic Readings is a good bet too.</p>
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		<title>By: Velska</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/12/december-preparing-for-the-annual-sunday-school-curriculum-reboot/#comment-303905</link>
		<dc:creator>Velska</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:18:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10452#comment-303905</guid>
		<description>I study the Tanakh at various web services, which offer stuff like Rashi commentary et cetera. I study Judaism seriously (once, years ago, I was seriously &lt;em&gt;becoming&lt;/em&gt; a Jew). I think it is very interesting to know what Orthodox Jews at various times have thought of the text. The Talmud is a treasure trove!

I don&#039;t expect everyone to be at the same level of interest.

Gospel Doctrine is meant for people, whose interest is at the level of figuring out the difference between Jacob and Israel (if any!?). And that&#039;s where most people are at. Holzapfel et.al. have done a good job of bringing the Near East closer to a lay student. Grateful for that.

Raymond has a good angle, if you ask me... that&#039;s what&#039;s my major discovery; when you peel off the cultural layers, you see the core of the Messiah/Christ figure saving the children of God from death and sin. The gospel&#039;s core message has always been essentially the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I study the Tanakh at various web services, which offer stuff like Rashi commentary et cetera. I study Judaism seriously (once, years ago, I was seriously <em>becoming</em> a Jew). I think it is very interesting to know what Orthodox Jews at various times have thought of the text. The Talmud is a treasure trove!</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t expect everyone to be at the same level of interest.</p>
<p>Gospel Doctrine is meant for people, whose interest is at the level of figuring out the difference between Jacob and Israel (if any!?). And that&#8217;s where most people are at. Holzapfel et.al. have done a good job of bringing the Near East closer to a lay student. Grateful for that.</p>
<p>Raymond has a good angle, if you ask me&#8230; that&#8217;s what&#8217;s my major discovery; when you peel off the cultural layers, you see the core of the Messiah/Christ figure saving the children of God from death and sin. The gospel&#8217;s core message has always been essentially the same.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Donaldson</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/12/december-preparing-for-the-annual-sunday-school-curriculum-reboot/#comment-303901</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Donaldson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:55:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10452#comment-303901</guid>
		<description>Re: &quot;Mormonizing&quot;

The problem is one of credibility. Sometimes the Mormonizing cooks the books so far that the original meaning or idea is lost and then you have no idea how reliable the rest of the material is--what has been cooked and what hasn&#039;t. It isn&#039;t just a problem with modern Mormons, Matthew, for example, in the New Testament, sometimes distorts Messianic prophecies into places they really weren&#039;t intended to go. It&#039;s nice to know what the Jews thought it meant.  It is fine to Mormonize, but it is also valuable to know when it is being done. At least in private study, it is good to know what was there originally (as best that term can be used) and how it has been bent. There&#039;s lots of interesting material in the supplementary material that may not best be used for teaching Gospel Doctrine. The agenda for Sunday School class time and private scripture study are different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: &#8220;Mormonizing&#8221;</p>
<p>The problem is one of credibility. Sometimes the Mormonizing cooks the books so far that the original meaning or idea is lost and then you have no idea how reliable the rest of the material is&#8211;what has been cooked and what hasn&#8217;t. It isn&#8217;t just a problem with modern Mormons, Matthew, for example, in the New Testament, sometimes distorts Messianic prophecies into places they really weren&#8217;t intended to go. It&#8217;s nice to know what the Jews thought it meant.  It is fine to Mormonize, but it is also valuable to know when it is being done. At least in private study, it is good to know what was there originally (as best that term can be used) and how it has been bent. There&#8217;s lots of interesting material in the supplementary material that may not best be used for teaching Gospel Doctrine. The agenda for Sunday School class time and private scripture study are different.</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/12/december-preparing-for-the-annual-sunday-school-curriculum-reboot/#comment-303888</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10452#comment-303888</guid>
		<description>OK, Dave.  Thanks for that perspective.  I will try to be part of improving the improvement, rather than just a whiner in the corner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, Dave.  Thanks for that perspective.  I will try to be part of improving the improvement, rather than just a whiner in the corner.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/12/december-preparing-for-the-annual-sunday-school-curriculum-reboot/#comment-303880</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 14:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10452#comment-303880</guid>
		<description>Hunter, I understand the view that it&#039;s just the same set of lessons presented using different texts. I think that observation applies with more force to the Priesthood/Relief Society lessons than to Sunday School. Teachers and students often bring discussion around to specific passages and ideas in the scriptural chapters covered that week whether part of the Sunday School lesson material or not. So I think the four-year cycle for Sunday School is a significant improvement over what came before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hunter, I understand the view that it&#8217;s just the same set of lessons presented using different texts. I think that observation applies with more force to the Priesthood/Relief Society lessons than to Sunday School. Teachers and students often bring discussion around to specific passages and ideas in the scriptural chapters covered that week whether part of the Sunday School lesson material or not. So I think the four-year cycle for Sunday School is a significant improvement over what came before.</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/12/december-preparing-for-the-annual-sunday-school-curriculum-reboot/#comment-303859</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 06:47:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10452#comment-303859</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Dave.  But, why &quot;three cheers for the four-year curriculum cycle in Sunday School&quot;?  As a foil to the Gospel Principles curriculum?  I hate to be another whiner, but the four-year curriculum is really just one year repeated four times; it&#039;s all the same lessons, but culled from a different source.  

No one seriously thinks there will be any real instruction on the Old Testament during the next year, do they?  Or maybe it&#039;s just past my bed time and I&#039;m cranky.

OK, sorry for all that.  I do thank you for the list of supplementary sources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Dave.  But, why &#8220;three cheers for the four-year curriculum cycle in Sunday School&#8221;?  As a foil to the Gospel Principles curriculum?  I hate to be another whiner, but the four-year curriculum is really just one year repeated four times; it&#8217;s all the same lessons, but culled from a different source.  </p>
<p>No one seriously thinks there will be any real instruction on the Old Testament during the next year, do they?  Or maybe it&#8217;s just past my bed time and I&#8217;m cranky.</p>
<p>OK, sorry for all that.  I do thank you for the list of supplementary sources.</p>
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		<title>By: Raymond Takashi Swenson</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/12/december-preparing-for-the-annual-sunday-school-curriculum-reboot/#comment-303831</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond Takashi Swenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 00:12:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10452#comment-303831</guid>
		<description>Thanks so much!  I will definitely be giving myself the Jehovah book. 
I recall a BYU professor talking about foreign students who were in his Book of Mormon class at BYU who did not come from any of the religious traditions in which the Old Testament was studied.  He said they had a difficult time making heads or tails of the Book of Mormon, and the questions they had were all answerable from the Old Testament.  Both the New Testament, the Book of Mormon and the D&amp;C assume familiarity with the Old Testament and its narratives.  

As for &quot;Mormonizing&quot; the Old Testament:  One of the things that makes Mormonism attractive for me is the concept that God&#039;s work has continuity, that his gospel is essentially the same in every dispensation.  It is certainly worthwhile understanding how Orthodox Jews interpret Isaiah 53, but reading into it a Christian and even Mormon interpretation is legitimate, even if Isaiah didn&#039;t grasp all of the details in the way we do with the perspective of the New Testament and Book of Mormon.  

The Gospels depict Jewish people who anticipated a Messiah who would fulfill specific prophecies, and it seems reasonable to me that those Jews, like Saul, who accepted that interpetation of the Old Testament, parted company with the Jews who did not.  

The Jews we know today are heirs of the latter group, while the Jews who saw a different import in the Old Testament prophecies of Messiah became Christians, and accepted a brotherhood with Gentile converts.  As I understand it, Methodist scholar Margaret Barker has argued in her books that a Judaism that anticipated a coming Son of God, fulfilled by Jesus of Nazareth, was the foundation of the Jews who became Christians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks so much!  I will definitely be giving myself the Jehovah book.<br />
I recall a BYU professor talking about foreign students who were in his Book of Mormon class at BYU who did not come from any of the religious traditions in which the Old Testament was studied.  He said they had a difficult time making heads or tails of the Book of Mormon, and the questions they had were all answerable from the Old Testament.  Both the New Testament, the Book of Mormon and the D&amp;C assume familiarity with the Old Testament and its narratives.  </p>
<p>As for &#8220;Mormonizing&#8221; the Old Testament:  One of the things that makes Mormonism attractive for me is the concept that God&#8217;s work has continuity, that his gospel is essentially the same in every dispensation.  It is certainly worthwhile understanding how Orthodox Jews interpret Isaiah 53, but reading into it a Christian and even Mormon interpretation is legitimate, even if Isaiah didn&#8217;t grasp all of the details in the way we do with the perspective of the New Testament and Book of Mormon.  </p>
<p>The Gospels depict Jewish people who anticipated a Messiah who would fulfill specific prophecies, and it seems reasonable to me that those Jews, like Saul, who accepted that interpetation of the Old Testament, parted company with the Jews who did not.  </p>
<p>The Jews we know today are heirs of the latter group, while the Jews who saw a different import in the Old Testament prophecies of Messiah became Christians, and accepted a brotherhood with Gentile converts.  As I understand it, Methodist scholar Margaret Barker has argued in her books that a Judaism that anticipated a coming Son of God, fulfilled by Jesus of Nazareth, was the foundation of the Jews who became Christians.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Green</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/12/december-preparing-for-the-annual-sunday-school-curriculum-reboot/#comment-303829</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:55:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10452#comment-303829</guid>
		<description>I guess I&#039;m not seeing how Mormonizing the text, for a Mormon Sunday School class, is a bad thing. It&#039;s probably the whole point of the class, even. Perhaps we could prefer materials that Mormonize the text in light of current historical and textual research, and with understanding and sympathy for the original context?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I&#8217;m not seeing how Mormonizing the text, for a Mormon Sunday School class, is a bad thing. It&#8217;s probably the whole point of the class, even. Perhaps we could prefer materials that Mormonize the text in light of current historical and textual research, and with understanding and sympathy for the original context?</p>
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		<title>By: JT</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/12/december-preparing-for-the-annual-sunday-school-curriculum-reboot/#comment-303827</link>
		<dc:creator>JT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:31:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10452#comment-303827</guid>
		<description>But for an LDS perspective on the biblical scholarship discussed in Coogan&#039;s text, I definitely second (or third, or fourth) the recommendation for _Jehovah and the World of the Old Testament_. I am definitely a fan of this and its predecessor on the New Testament.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But for an LDS perspective on the biblical scholarship discussed in Coogan&#8217;s text, I definitely second (or third, or fourth) the recommendation for _Jehovah and the World of the Old Testament_. I am definitely a fan of this and its predecessor on the New Testament.</p>
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