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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Fathers do not mother&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/11/fathers-do-not-mother/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Joseph West</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/11/fathers-do-not-mother/#comment-302311</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph West</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:59:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10132#comment-302311</guid>
		<description>Once I read some Pruett stuff as part of an elder&#039;s quorum lesson on fatherhood. I was a stay at home dad at the time. But apparently the eq pres. didn&#039;t want to hear all this sissy stuff about the father&#039;s potential as a nurturer. When my lesson was over, we got held up 10 minutes past the end of church for a nice lecture from the eq president on the virtues of manly things such as earning a living wage and protecting your family.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once I read some Pruett stuff as part of an elder&#8217;s quorum lesson on fatherhood. I was a stay at home dad at the time. But apparently the eq pres. didn&#8217;t want to hear all this sissy stuff about the father&#8217;s potential as a nurturer. When my lesson was over, we got held up 10 minutes past the end of church for a nice lecture from the eq president on the virtues of manly things such as earning a living wage and protecting your family.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph West</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/11/fathers-do-not-mother/#comment-302309</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph West</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:37:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10132#comment-302309</guid>
		<description>Rosalynde Welch-

Control for time spent with the child, and the effects of gender on things like missing cues and child harm will wash out. Whether you are male or female, the more time you spend with a baby, the more you are able to read cues and the better you become at caring for the child. What a shocker!

On a more speculative note, in my opinion the ways in which women tend to &quot;damage&quot; children is not something we can easily observe because of cultural constraints and the way gender is socially constructed (and btw, to posit the social construction of gender is not to deny its reality). In other words, men are more dangerous to children *by cultural definition*. That&#039;s what these studies about male danger to children really show -- that if you take traditional understandings of gender for granted, you can demonstrate that women are less dangerous to kids. But it&#039;s a farce because in undertaking such a study, you can&#039;t operationalize your outcome in a way that is not true by definition!

Oh and if you think Pruett seeks to &quot;minimize and whitewash&quot; male/female differences in parenting, then you seriously misunderstand his work. The main emphasis of his research is that males contribute in unique and important ways to child development. I actually think that, if anything, he even goes a little too far sometimes in generalizing about gender differences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rosalynde Welch-</p>
<p>Control for time spent with the child, and the effects of gender on things like missing cues and child harm will wash out. Whether you are male or female, the more time you spend with a baby, the more you are able to read cues and the better you become at caring for the child. What a shocker!</p>
<p>On a more speculative note, in my opinion the ways in which women tend to &#8220;damage&#8221; children is not something we can easily observe because of cultural constraints and the way gender is socially constructed (and btw, to posit the social construction of gender is not to deny its reality). In other words, men are more dangerous to children *by cultural definition*. That&#8217;s what these studies about male danger to children really show &#8212; that if you take traditional understandings of gender for granted, you can demonstrate that women are less dangerous to kids. But it&#8217;s a farce because in undertaking such a study, you can&#8217;t operationalize your outcome in a way that is not true by definition!</p>
<p>Oh and if you think Pruett seeks to &#8220;minimize and whitewash&#8221; male/female differences in parenting, then you seriously misunderstand his work. The main emphasis of his research is that males contribute in unique and important ways to child development. I actually think that, if anything, he even goes a little too far sometimes in generalizing about gender differences.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Kramer</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/11/fathers-do-not-mother/#comment-302279</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Kramer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:24:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10132#comment-302279</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s my bad, Frank.  Reading Ardis in such an incharitable light is a persistent and recurring mistake of mine.  She could be talking in some public forum to some person (say, just to throw out a totally random example, to Kristine) and she could be like &quot;I have an alternate opinion” or “while I understand why you think that, you’re overlooking X” but all I hear is &quot;you jerk, you’re totally wrong and only an idiot could possibly make such a stupid claim. Not that you’ll ever be as socially enlightened as I am, but if you were, you’d understand why I spit on you and your ridiculous statements.”  

It&#039;s really a problem I should work on, especially since it&#039;s a fairly regular source of embarrassment for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s my bad, Frank.  Reading Ardis in such an incharitable light is a persistent and recurring mistake of mine.  She could be talking in some public forum to some person (say, just to throw out a totally random example, to Kristine) and she could be like &#8220;I have an alternate opinion” or “while I understand why you think that, you’re overlooking X” but all I hear is &#8220;you jerk, you’re totally wrong and only an idiot could possibly make such a stupid claim. Not that you’ll ever be as socially enlightened as I am, but if you were, you’d understand why I spit on you and your ridiculous statements.”  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s really a problem I should work on, especially since it&#8217;s a fairly regular source of embarrassment for me.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/11/fathers-do-not-mother/#comment-302208</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank McIntyre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:24:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10132#comment-302208</guid>
		<description>Brad, in the future try to make your mockery more pointed and less convoluted.  I had not the least idea that you were directing it specifically (or technically?) at me.  

But thanks for the public apology. I agree that you misinterpreted Ardis, but things like that happen all the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad, in the future try to make your mockery more pointed and less convoluted.  I had not the least idea that you were directing it specifically (or technically?) at me.  </p>
<p>But thanks for the public apology. I agree that you misinterpreted Ardis, but things like that happen all the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Kramer</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/11/fathers-do-not-mother/#comment-302207</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Kramer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:41:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10132#comment-302207</guid>
		<description>For the record, Ardis, I was technically mocking Frank.

That said, since you&#039;ve made clear just how strongly you feel about this sort of thing in blog comments, let me take this opportunity to publicly apologize for the fact that I interpreted the final paragraph of your comment #17 as mocking those who feel differently than you do about Proclamation language.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record, Ardis, I was technically mocking Frank.</p>
<p>That said, since you&#8217;ve made clear just how strongly you feel about this sort of thing in blog comments, let me take this opportunity to publicly apologize for the fact that I interpreted the final paragraph of your comment #17 as mocking those who feel differently than you do about Proclamation language.</p>
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		<title>By: Chad Too</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/11/fathers-do-not-mother/#comment-302206</link>
		<dc:creator>Chad Too</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:18:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10132#comment-302206</guid>
		<description>OK, I&#039;m calmer now.  Stlll, I find it telling that in a thread where the topic is that fathers have a beneficial role in the lives of their children, though different than that of mothers, we veered into the danger dads pose to children.  

Mothers needn&#039;t be so defensive about their role.  That fathers play a greater role does not diminish the important role mothers play.  It&#039;s not a zero sum game, and we do no good to reduce each other&#039;s influence to that of merely an iron hand or a skillet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I&#8217;m calmer now.  Stlll, I find it telling that in a thread where the topic is that fathers have a beneficial role in the lives of their children, though different than that of mothers, we veered into the danger dads pose to children.  </p>
<p>Mothers needn&#8217;t be so defensive about their role.  That fathers play a greater role does not diminish the important role mothers play.  It&#8217;s not a zero sum game, and we do no good to reduce each other&#8217;s influence to that of merely an iron hand or a skillet.</p>
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		<title>By: Tatiana</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/11/fathers-do-not-mother/#comment-302205</link>
		<dc:creator>Tatiana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 13:16:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10132#comment-302205</guid>
		<description>I do think moms have to step back and give up control to let dads do more.  I&#039;ve seen wives complain that the husband doesn&#039;t do a task much, then watched them criticize how the task is done when the husband does do the task.  There&#039;s also the thing that Cosby pointed out where husbands sometimes do a task badly on purpose so they won&#039;t be asked to do it again.  But all in all, it&#039;s important for each spouse to be free to do things the way they feel is best, without a lot of micromanagement from the other spouse.  And it&#039;s important not to specialize too much, I think.  It&#039;s a good thing when both spouses get enough experience that they know how to do things the other typically does.

An example is when my father died, my mom was suddenly forced to learn at age 73 how to do dozens of things that she had not done all her life such as pump gas.  None of the things individually were difficult to learn, but being hit with all of them at once, at a time when her brain was older and she was overwhelmed with grief was not good.  Her learned helplessness was causing her great difficulty.  In the same way, my father didn&#039;t know how to do laundry.  He had not the faintest clue.  A male coworker once didn&#039;t realize toilets have to be cleaned.  I&#039;m serious.  His mom did it his whole life until he married, then his wife took over and not only had he never cleaned a toilet, he didn&#039;t even know that job existed.  I had a similar epiphany when I moved out of my mom&#039;s house, not realizing that things like scrubbing and wiping down the washer and dryer were necessary because they&#039;d been done for me all my life.  

I think also that stay-at-home mothers sometimes don&#039;t have the experience of delegating responsibility as they might have gotten if they worked full time outside the home.  They might have learned that you have to give reasonable expectations, and maybe offer some help with methods, if needed, but basically get out of the way and let the person do the work in their own way.  You have to trust the person to do things well.  If you have no faith in them, they can feel that, and they&#039;ll basically back off and let you take over.  

So I agree with the article that mothers and dads should be expected to be involved with their kids but not necessarily in exactly the same way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do think moms have to step back and give up control to let dads do more.  I&#8217;ve seen wives complain that the husband doesn&#8217;t do a task much, then watched them criticize how the task is done when the husband does do the task.  There&#8217;s also the thing that Cosby pointed out where husbands sometimes do a task badly on purpose so they won&#8217;t be asked to do it again.  But all in all, it&#8217;s important for each spouse to be free to do things the way they feel is best, without a lot of micromanagement from the other spouse.  And it&#8217;s important not to specialize too much, I think.  It&#8217;s a good thing when both spouses get enough experience that they know how to do things the other typically does.</p>
<p>An example is when my father died, my mom was suddenly forced to learn at age 73 how to do dozens of things that she had not done all her life such as pump gas.  None of the things individually were difficult to learn, but being hit with all of them at once, at a time when her brain was older and she was overwhelmed with grief was not good.  Her learned helplessness was causing her great difficulty.  In the same way, my father didn&#8217;t know how to do laundry.  He had not the faintest clue.  A male coworker once didn&#8217;t realize toilets have to be cleaned.  I&#8217;m serious.  His mom did it his whole life until he married, then his wife took over and not only had he never cleaned a toilet, he didn&#8217;t even know that job existed.  I had a similar epiphany when I moved out of my mom&#8217;s house, not realizing that things like scrubbing and wiping down the washer and dryer were necessary because they&#8217;d been done for me all my life.  </p>
<p>I think also that stay-at-home mothers sometimes don&#8217;t have the experience of delegating responsibility as they might have gotten if they worked full time outside the home.  They might have learned that you have to give reasonable expectations, and maybe offer some help with methods, if needed, but basically get out of the way and let the person do the work in their own way.  You have to trust the person to do things well.  If you have no faith in them, they can feel that, and they&#8217;ll basically back off and let you take over.  </p>
<p>So I agree with the article that mothers and dads should be expected to be involved with their kids but not necessarily in exactly the same way.</p>
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		<title>By: djinn</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/11/fathers-do-not-mother/#comment-302202</link>
		<dc:creator>djinn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 05:50:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10132#comment-302202</guid>
		<description>Actually, Rosalynde Welch, when you look worldwide, mothers kill younger children, fathers kill older children, but the numbers are about the same.  As to the current prevalence of stepfathers over stepmothers, remember that women used to die in childbirth in rather horrific numbers--the fathers would often remarry; lots of kids had stepmothers.  The current trend of more stepfathers is a historical anomaly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, Rosalynde Welch, when you look worldwide, mothers kill younger children, fathers kill older children, but the numbers are about the same.  As to the current prevalence of stepfathers over stepmothers, remember that women used to die in childbirth in rather horrific numbers&#8211;the fathers would often remarry; lots of kids had stepmothers.  The current trend of more stepfathers is a historical anomaly.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde Welch</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/11/fathers-do-not-mother/#comment-302197</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 04:56:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10132#comment-302197</guid>
		<description>Whoa, Chad---clearly my tone was too strong in that last comment.  I should have reiterated that, overall, very few fathers kill or harm their children.  And we know that, in our present cultural circumstances, at least, having fathers in the picture is a major predictor of good outcomes for kids. Three cheers for fathers! Your kids are extremely lucky to have you in their lives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoa, Chad&#8212;clearly my tone was too strong in that last comment.  I should have reiterated that, overall, very few fathers kill or harm their children.  And we know that, in our present cultural circumstances, at least, having fathers in the picture is a major predictor of good outcomes for kids. Three cheers for fathers! Your kids are extremely lucky to have you in their lives.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/11/fathers-do-not-mother/#comment-302194</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank McIntyre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 04:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=10132#comment-302194</guid>
		<description>Chad,

If you think the stats Rosalynde cites suggest you should leave your children or that all men are negligent, step away from the computer.  Infanticide, outside of abortion, is quite rare.  Rosalynde is not calling all fathers out as killers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chad,</p>
<p>If you think the stats Rosalynde cites suggest you should leave your children or that all men are negligent, step away from the computer.  Infanticide, outside of abortion, is quite rare.  Rosalynde is not calling all fathers out as killers.</p>
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