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	<title>Comments on: The Nasty Side of Christian Ethics</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/10/the-nasty-side-of-christian-ethics/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: April</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/10/the-nasty-side-of-christian-ethics/#comment-301822</link>
		<dc:creator>April</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 18:08:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9975#comment-301822</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s true that some people seem to thrive on broadcasting their own &quot;wonderfulness.&quot; We just have to remember that those who advertise their good works have their reward.

That said, I think we often have to work at being kind to others. Sure, many people don&#039;t deserve it, but we have to remind ourselves of how we would like to be treated. The Holy Spirit has often clobbered me with the need to help someone. I certainly didn&#039;t think of it myself.

I don&#039;t, however, have any problem with President Monson&#039;s use of personal examples from his life to teach others the nature of service. When you are a trying to teach a principle, you often resort to your own experiences.

As for turning the other cheek, many Christians have the wrong idea. Jesus didn&#039;t mince words and he didn&#039;t just let people best him. He called Herod an &quot;old fox&quot; and he trapped those who laid snares for him, such as in the case of the adulteress &quot;cast the first stone&quot; and in the case of taxes -- &quot;render unto Caesar.&quot;

Turning the other cheek doesn&#039;t mean giving a mild response. It means giving the right response. Should we speak out for what&#039;s right? Yes. Should we go with what the Lord said instead of spout the sophistries of men? Absolutely. Should we offer a fake apology to get the upper hand? No. The Lord never did any such thing.

It all boils down to this: throw out the psychology and just look at how the Lord actually handles things. This requires reading the entire Bible, at a minimum, and reading it for yourself, not just going by hearsay. I can&#039;t tell you how many things that are attributed to Christ which are exactly contrary to what he really did and what he really wants.

So the Lord is forgiving? Yes, if people repent. That&#039;s a key ingredient. Running around vocally forgiving people is just plain annoying. If you&#039;re prone to it, cut it out. The Lord is in charge of forgiving. Just give it over to him and let him tell you how to handle it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s true that some people seem to thrive on broadcasting their own &#8220;wonderfulness.&#8221; We just have to remember that those who advertise their good works have their reward.</p>
<p>That said, I think we often have to work at being kind to others. Sure, many people don&#8217;t deserve it, but we have to remind ourselves of how we would like to be treated. The Holy Spirit has often clobbered me with the need to help someone. I certainly didn&#8217;t think of it myself.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t, however, have any problem with President Monson&#8217;s use of personal examples from his life to teach others the nature of service. When you are a trying to teach a principle, you often resort to your own experiences.</p>
<p>As for turning the other cheek, many Christians have the wrong idea. Jesus didn&#8217;t mince words and he didn&#8217;t just let people best him. He called Herod an &#8220;old fox&#8221; and he trapped those who laid snares for him, such as in the case of the adulteress &#8220;cast the first stone&#8221; and in the case of taxes &#8212; &#8220;render unto Caesar.&#8221;</p>
<p>Turning the other cheek doesn&#8217;t mean giving a mild response. It means giving the right response. Should we speak out for what&#8217;s right? Yes. Should we go with what the Lord said instead of spout the sophistries of men? Absolutely. Should we offer a fake apology to get the upper hand? No. The Lord never did any such thing.</p>
<p>It all boils down to this: throw out the psychology and just look at how the Lord actually handles things. This requires reading the entire Bible, at a minimum, and reading it for yourself, not just going by hearsay. I can&#8217;t tell you how many things that are attributed to Christ which are exactly contrary to what he really did and what he really wants.</p>
<p>So the Lord is forgiving? Yes, if people repent. That&#8217;s a key ingredient. Running around vocally forgiving people is just plain annoying. If you&#8217;re prone to it, cut it out. The Lord is in charge of forgiving. Just give it over to him and let him tell you how to handle it.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/10/the-nasty-side-of-christian-ethics/#comment-301634</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 21:40:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9975#comment-301634</guid>
		<description>Second only to the &quot;martyr&quot; in annoyingness is the one who frets all the time about whether he or she is forgiving and so forth for the right reasons for for pride.  Look, introspection isn&#039;t one of the 10 Commandments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Second only to the &#8220;martyr&#8221; in annoyingness is the one who frets all the time about whether he or she is forgiving and so forth for the right reasons for for pride.  Look, introspection isn&#8217;t one of the 10 Commandments.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/10/the-nasty-side-of-christian-ethics/#comment-301633</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 21:36:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9975#comment-301633</guid>
		<description>Maybe the Christian ethic works best the way Christ taught it: to people who already have an honor or a justice ethic that feeds their self-esteem and their status needs, so they take to Christianity because they&#039;re convicted of it.  Of course, that probably doesn&#039;t work to well in an already Christian society . . .  but maybe we see the genius here behind the Church&#039;s emphasis on sexual morality, hard work, and staying off the booze.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe the Christian ethic works best the way Christ taught it: to people who already have an honor or a justice ethic that feeds their self-esteem and their status needs, so they take to Christianity because they&#8217;re convicted of it.  Of course, that probably doesn&#8217;t work to well in an already Christian society . . .  but maybe we see the genius here behind the Church&#8217;s emphasis on sexual morality, hard work, and staying off the booze.</p>
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		<title>By: bjohnson</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/10/the-nasty-side-of-christian-ethics/#comment-301632</link>
		<dc:creator>bjohnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 20:57:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9975#comment-301632</guid>
		<description>&quot;any apology which is meant as a offensive tactical device–i.e., to purposefully make the offender feel bad–is not an apology at all.&quot;

&quot;Sorry: apology is probably the wrong word. “Forgiveness” is probably better.&quot;


Yes.  It ranks right up there with &quot;Well, if you thought what I did was offensive, then I apologize.&quot;

On the &quot;forgiveness&quot; front . . .

My wife and I both spent quite a few years in singles wards before we married.  About four months after our wedding we dropped into our former ward to attend sacrament meeting.  While I was speaking with a friend a few feet away, a man who had made numerous unsuccessful plays for my wife walked up to her and, without preamble, solemnly proclaimed &quot;I&#039;ve forgiven you.&quot;  Stunned, my wife stammered, &quot;Er, thanks.  I forgive you as well.&quot;  The fellow then walked away without further comment. 

Awesome!  It&#039;s the kind of natural passive-aggressiveness no amount of training could ever hope to match.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;any apology which is meant as a offensive tactical device–i.e., to purposefully make the offender feel bad–is not an apology at all.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Sorry: apology is probably the wrong word. “Forgiveness” is probably better.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes.  It ranks right up there with &#8220;Well, if you thought what I did was offensive, then I apologize.&#8221;</p>
<p>On the &#8220;forgiveness&#8221; front . . .</p>
<p>My wife and I both spent quite a few years in singles wards before we married.  About four months after our wedding we dropped into our former ward to attend sacrament meeting.  While I was speaking with a friend a few feet away, a man who had made numerous unsuccessful plays for my wife walked up to her and, without preamble, solemnly proclaimed &#8220;I&#8217;ve forgiven you.&#8221;  Stunned, my wife stammered, &#8220;Er, thanks.  I forgive you as well.&#8221;  The fellow then walked away without further comment. </p>
<p>Awesome!  It&#8217;s the kind of natural passive-aggressiveness no amount of training could ever hope to match.</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/10/the-nasty-side-of-christian-ethics/#comment-301628</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 19:42:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9975#comment-301628</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s OK, jimbob, we accept your apology and forgive you.  [wink]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s OK, jimbob, we accept your apology and forgive you.  [wink]</p>
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		<title>By: jimbob</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/10/the-nasty-side-of-christian-ethics/#comment-301623</link>
		<dc:creator>jimbob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 17:44:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9975#comment-301623</guid>
		<description>Sorry:  apology is probably the wrong word.  &quot;Forgiveness&quot; is probably better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry:  apology is probably the wrong word.  &#8220;Forgiveness&#8221; is probably better.</p>
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		<title>By: jimbob</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/10/the-nasty-side-of-christian-ethics/#comment-301622</link>
		<dc:creator>jimbob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 17:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9975#comment-301622</guid>
		<description>To the extent I understand the post, I&#039;ll state that I&#039;ve long felt this way about apologies.  I&#039;ve known too many people who use apologies as a weapon, as in:  &quot;You&#039;ve really offended me with the horrible things you do, but I want you to know that I forgive you.&quot;  I&#039;ve even known people who have said that when the &quot;offender&quot; didn&#039;t know he had offended the &quot;victim&quot; prior to the apology.  In any event, I&#039;ve decided that any apology which is meant as a offensive tactical device--i.e., to purposefully make the offender feel bad--is not an apology at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To the extent I understand the post, I&#8217;ll state that I&#8217;ve long felt this way about apologies.  I&#8217;ve known too many people who use apologies as a weapon, as in:  &#8220;You&#8217;ve really offended me with the horrible things you do, but I want you to know that I forgive you.&#8221;  I&#8217;ve even known people who have said that when the &#8220;offender&#8221; didn&#8217;t know he had offended the &#8220;victim&#8221; prior to the apology.  In any event, I&#8217;ve decided that any apology which is meant as a offensive tactical device&#8211;i.e., to purposefully make the offender feel bad&#8211;is not an apology at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Crick</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/10/the-nasty-side-of-christian-ethics/#comment-301577</link>
		<dc:creator>Crick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 19:36:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You have said that you believe President Monson’s acts are sincere.  I know they are and have noticed that he also shares stories of when others did the good deeds and when he was the beneficiary.  

As a leader, he recognizes that, in the words of President Hinckley, “[his] role is to stand as an example before the people”.

I believe the traits of being unconsciously Christian include not only avoiding “tooting your own horn” but also to not suspect others’ good deeds or their retelling of them to be horn tooting either.  Of course, sometimes it’s egregious and some people seem programmed to brag, but I have never felt uncomfortable about President Monson’s stories, which I feel are an important part of his ministry and an example of what we ought to be doing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have said that you believe President Monson’s acts are sincere.  I know they are and have noticed that he also shares stories of when others did the good deeds and when he was the beneficiary.  </p>
<p>As a leader, he recognizes that, in the words of President Hinckley, “[his] role is to stand as an example before the people”.</p>
<p>I believe the traits of being unconsciously Christian include not only avoiding “tooting your own horn” but also to not suspect others’ good deeds or their retelling of them to be horn tooting either.  Of course, sometimes it’s egregious and some people seem programmed to brag, but I have never felt uncomfortable about President Monson’s stories, which I feel are an important part of his ministry and an example of what we ought to be doing.</p>
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		<title>By: The Only True and Living Nathan</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/10/the-nasty-side-of-christian-ethics/#comment-301561</link>
		<dc:creator>The Only True and Living Nathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:52:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9975#comment-301561</guid>
		<description>Those who call attention to how graciously they turn the other cheek are in the same camp as whose who call attention to their alms or their fasting.  It&#039;s pride masquerading perversely as humility.  Verily, they have their reward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those who call attention to how graciously they turn the other cheek are in the same camp as whose who call attention to their alms or their fasting.  It&#8217;s pride masquerading perversely as humility.  Verily, they have their reward.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff B</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/10/the-nasty-side-of-christian-ethics/#comment-301551</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:25:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9975#comment-301551</guid>
		<description>I think these discussions sometimes miss the whole side involving people trying to be better but falling short of actually being better.  For example, regarding #21, I try to be better by not striking back.  But in reality there may be some &quot;holier than thou&quot; pride involved.  I really am trying, but others perceive it the wrong way, and when I analyze it there is some pride involved in my response.  Is that really a greater sin?  At least I&#039;m trying to be a better person.   Wouldn&#039;t it be an even greater sin not to try?

I try to do a Christ-like act out of love for another person, because I am trying to love them like Christ does, but when I analyze it, the truth is I am prideful and want to seem a bit holier than thou.  Would it be better not to do the kind act at all because I know I have pride, which I am incapable of overcoming at this point in my life?

It seems to me that it all comes back to doing charitable and kind things, acting in charitable and kind ways, even if you are not doing it for motives that are 100 percent pure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think these discussions sometimes miss the whole side involving people trying to be better but falling short of actually being better.  For example, regarding #21, I try to be better by not striking back.  But in reality there may be some &#8220;holier than thou&#8221; pride involved.  I really am trying, but others perceive it the wrong way, and when I analyze it there is some pride involved in my response.  Is that really a greater sin?  At least I&#8217;m trying to be a better person.   Wouldn&#8217;t it be an even greater sin not to try?</p>
<p>I try to do a Christ-like act out of love for another person, because I am trying to love them like Christ does, but when I analyze it, the truth is I am prideful and want to seem a bit holier than thou.  Would it be better not to do the kind act at all because I know I have pride, which I am incapable of overcoming at this point in my life?</p>
<p>It seems to me that it all comes back to doing charitable and kind things, acting in charitable and kind ways, even if you are not doing it for motives that are 100 percent pure.</p>
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