<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Mormon prayer and Mormon art</title>
	<atom:link href="http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/08/mormon-prayer-and-mormon-art/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/08/mormon-prayer-and-mormon-art/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 12:03:52 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jonathan Green</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/08/mormon-prayer-and-mormon-art/#comment-297548</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 21:56:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9348#comment-297548</guid>
		<description>Russell, you bring up a very interesting point that I ended up not discussing in my post, which is how Mormon speech patterns are also affected by taboos (avoiding the appearance of allusion to temple liturgy) and boundary marking (avoiding similarity to what are perceived as religiously foreign).

I don&#039;t think white, American, middle- and upper-class are the best categories in this case. Instead, I&#039;d suggest something like the degree to which someone is steeped in or identifies with Mormon culture as it existed before, say 1970 (which was predominantly white and American). So a lifelong church attender raised in Arizona stands a good chance of having picked up a Mormon manner of prayer, I would guess, while a recent convert would have to make a conscious choice to adopt it, or not. Think of it as the verbal equivalent of wearing a white shirt to church. (I disagree with the class restriction, however; I&#039;d guess that the linguistic features of Mormon prayers are equally or more prevalent among rural congregations, for example.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russell, you bring up a very interesting point that I ended up not discussing in my post, which is how Mormon speech patterns are also affected by taboos (avoiding the appearance of allusion to temple liturgy) and boundary marking (avoiding similarity to what are perceived as religiously foreign).</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think white, American, middle- and upper-class are the best categories in this case. Instead, I&#8217;d suggest something like the degree to which someone is steeped in or identifies with Mormon culture as it existed before, say 1970 (which was predominantly white and American). So a lifelong church attender raised in Arizona stands a good chance of having picked up a Mormon manner of prayer, I would guess, while a recent convert would have to make a conscious choice to adopt it, or not. Think of it as the verbal equivalent of wearing a white shirt to church. (I disagree with the class restriction, however; I&#8217;d guess that the linguistic features of Mormon prayers are equally or more prevalent among rural congregations, for example.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Russell Arben Fox</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/08/mormon-prayer-and-mormon-art/#comment-297513</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell Arben Fox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:09:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9348#comment-297513</guid>
		<description>Fabulous post, Jonathan. Many thanks for the time you put into it.

One thing that is probably included in your point above about public prayers being a &quot;lived tradition,&quot; but which might deserve a little more emphasis, is that public prayers on one potentially rather important way in which we place ourselves in the midst of our family lineage and heritage. There are phrases that I use in my prayers--such as &quot;bless us with our needs and our righteous desires&quot;--that probably have long been used by millions of Saints, but which I learned most specifically from my maternal grandfather, and whose face and tone of voice I can still call up in my memory when I say those words. I&#039;ve become, through my speech, a carrier of his legacy of faith.

I also found your comment about the white upper- and middle-class English-speaking American Mormon (because, of course, that &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; what this post is basically talking about) tendency to choose some variation of &quot;father&quot; over &quot;God.&quot; The same thing would go for the lack of references to &quot;Jesus&quot; in our prayers, as opposed to the more formal &quot;Jesus Christ&quot; or, even more commonly I think, the third person &quot;the Savior&quot; or &quot;the Redeemer.&quot; As I&#039;ve said before in other contexts, our collective distaste for things smacking of most kinds of evangelical Protestantism goes overboard, sometimes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fabulous post, Jonathan. Many thanks for the time you put into it.</p>
<p>One thing that is probably included in your point above about public prayers being a &#8220;lived tradition,&#8221; but which might deserve a little more emphasis, is that public prayers on one potentially rather important way in which we place ourselves in the midst of our family lineage and heritage. There are phrases that I use in my prayers&#8211;such as &#8220;bless us with our needs and our righteous desires&#8221;&#8211;that probably have long been used by millions of Saints, but which I learned most specifically from my maternal grandfather, and whose face and tone of voice I can still call up in my memory when I say those words. I&#8217;ve become, through my speech, a carrier of his legacy of faith.</p>
<p>I also found your comment about the white upper- and middle-class English-speaking American Mormon (because, of course, that <i>is</i> what this post is basically talking about) tendency to choose some variation of &#8220;father&#8221; over &#8220;God.&#8221; The same thing would go for the lack of references to &#8220;Jesus&#8221; in our prayers, as opposed to the more formal &#8220;Jesus Christ&#8221; or, even more commonly I think, the third person &#8220;the Savior&#8221; or &#8220;the Redeemer.&#8221; As I&#8217;ve said before in other contexts, our collective distaste for things smacking of most kinds of evangelical Protestantism goes overboard, sometimes.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jonathan Green</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/08/mormon-prayer-and-mormon-art/#comment-297480</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 23:03:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9348#comment-297480</guid>
		<description>Hunter, thanks for the example. If you dug up that text on a clay tablet in cuneiform, you might look at the language use and decide that you had reached a tipping point where ritual language is also poetic. You might argue based on the arrangement of lines approximately in order of length, or from the mentioning of the father-son-spirit triad in traditional order but disjoined by several clauses, or from the ring structure of &#039;thank for day...rest of this day&#039;, or from the subtle allusion to sacral myths (birth of Christ, Crucifixion) with reference to popular custom (gift giving), or from the conjoining of religious covenant and national legal foundations (renew our covenants...freedom to worship).

Do note that these arguments may be a bit tendentious. My point is that what we mean by &#039;poetry&#039; or verbal art outside of the modern traditions we&#039;re familiar with is broad enough, and the features of Mormon prayer are unusual enough, that an outside observer might decide that the characteristic Mormon art form are our public prayers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hunter, thanks for the example. If you dug up that text on a clay tablet in cuneiform, you might look at the language use and decide that you had reached a tipping point where ritual language is also poetic. You might argue based on the arrangement of lines approximately in order of length, or from the mentioning of the father-son-spirit triad in traditional order but disjoined by several clauses, or from the ring structure of &#8216;thank for day&#8230;rest of this day&#8217;, or from the subtle allusion to sacral myths (birth of Christ, Crucifixion) with reference to popular custom (gift giving), or from the conjoining of religious covenant and national legal foundations (renew our covenants&#8230;freedom to worship).</p>
<p>Do note that these arguments may be a bit tendentious. My point is that what we mean by &#8216;poetry&#8217; or verbal art outside of the modern traditions we&#8217;re familiar with is broad enough, and the features of Mormon prayer are unusual enough, that an outside observer might decide that the characteristic Mormon art form are our public prayers.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Hunter</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/08/mormon-prayer-and-mormon-art/#comment-297460</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 19:13:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9348#comment-297460</guid>
		<description>Jonathan Green: I wasn&#039;t arguing that art isn&#039;t ever limited by social constraints.  I&#039;m arguing that the Mormon formulaic (i.e., socially constrained) public prayer is not &quot;art,&quot; to wit:

&quot;Dear HF
We thank thee for this day.
We thank thee for the gift of thy Son.
We thank thee for this opportunity to come and renew our covenants.
We thank thee for the freedom to worship in this blessed land of ours.
We thank thee for the leaders of the church.
We ask thee to continue to inspire them with the inspiration they need.
We ask for thy Spirit to be with us here in this meeting and to be with us the rest of this day.
In the name of . . . Amen.&quot;

This type of Mormon public prayer is a convention.  And hence, its repetition is, at best, a performance.  Show me what I&#039;m missing, because heaven knows that I&#039;d like to witness a little art in Sacrament Meeting, instead of the usual pharasaic/Zoramite repetition of phrases.  Please.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan Green: I wasn&#8217;t arguing that art isn&#8217;t ever limited by social constraints.  I&#8217;m arguing that the Mormon formulaic (i.e., socially constrained) public prayer is not &#8220;art,&#8221; to wit:</p>
<p>&#8220;Dear HF<br />
We thank thee for this day.<br />
We thank thee for the gift of thy Son.<br />
We thank thee for this opportunity to come and renew our covenants.<br />
We thank thee for the freedom to worship in this blessed land of ours.<br />
We thank thee for the leaders of the church.<br />
We ask thee to continue to inspire them with the inspiration they need.<br />
We ask for thy Spirit to be with us here in this meeting and to be with us the rest of this day.<br />
In the name of . . . Amen.&#8221;</p>
<p>This type of Mormon public prayer is a convention.  And hence, its repetition is, at best, a performance.  Show me what I&#8217;m missing, because heaven knows that I&#8217;d like to witness a little art in Sacrament Meeting, instead of the usual pharasaic/Zoramite repetition of phrases.  Please.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/08/mormon-prayer-and-mormon-art/#comment-297423</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:18:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9348#comment-297423</guid>
		<description>Shoot, now I&#039;m going to get all analytical next Sunday.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shoot, now I&#8217;m going to get all analytical next Sunday.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: reader Rachel</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/08/mormon-prayer-and-mormon-art/#comment-297416</link>
		<dc:creator>reader Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 04:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9348#comment-297416</guid>
		<description>At meals alone with my kids, if I&#039;m praying, I often say the Lord&#039;s Prayer. It&#039;s beautiful and perfect, each phrase a sermon I need as much as my daily bread. They don&#039;t have it memorized to recite, but bits of phrases and ideas from it sometimes pop up in their prayers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At meals alone with my kids, if I&#8217;m praying, I often say the Lord&#8217;s Prayer. It&#8217;s beautiful and perfect, each phrase a sermon I need as much as my daily bread. They don&#8217;t have it memorized to recite, but bits of phrases and ideas from it sometimes pop up in their prayers.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lucius beebe</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/08/mormon-prayer-and-mormon-art/#comment-297415</link>
		<dc:creator>lucius beebe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 03:42:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9348#comment-297415</guid>
		<description>nice work.
speaking of &#039;nourish and strengthen&#039;: ironic to hear so many blessings over food that clearly causes cancer, obesity; this are full of preservatives and chemicals.  it&#039;s one thing to multiply loaves and fishes but to ask for garbage to nourish and strengthen is asking for quite a miracle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nice work.<br />
speaking of &#8216;nourish and strengthen&#8217;: ironic to hear so many blessings over food that clearly causes cancer, obesity; this are full of preservatives and chemicals.  it&#8217;s one thing to multiply loaves and fishes but to ask for garbage to nourish and strengthen is asking for quite a miracle.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sara</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/08/mormon-prayer-and-mormon-art/#comment-297411</link>
		<dc:creator>Sara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 02:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9348#comment-297411</guid>
		<description>I always love how we often pray to Devonly Father, as was pointed out to after a prayer was said one sacrement - followed by snorts of laughter as we ponder how often we had been &#039;guilty&#039; of running words together.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always love how we often pray to Devonly Father, as was pointed out to after a prayer was said one sacrement &#8211; followed by snorts of laughter as we ponder how often we had been &#8216;guilty&#8217; of running words together.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jonathan Green</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/08/mormon-prayer-and-mormon-art/#comment-297408</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 02:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9348#comment-297408</guid>
		<description>No, hold on to &#039;nourish and strengthen&#039;! It&#039;s a classic part of the Mormon formulary. Your job is not to eradicate it, but to find new and interesting uses for it. Split it across two clauses. Modify it with interesting adjectives. Find new subjects or objects for it. The possibilities are endless, and interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, hold on to &#8216;nourish and strengthen&#8217;! It&#8217;s a classic part of the Mormon formulary. Your job is not to eradicate it, but to find new and interesting uses for it. Split it across two clauses. Modify it with interesting adjectives. Find new subjects or objects for it. The possibilities are endless, and interesting.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kew</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/08/mormon-prayer-and-mormon-art/#comment-297398</link>
		<dc:creator>Kew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 23:23:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=9348#comment-297398</guid>
		<description>Excellent analysis. Thank you very much. I now feel inspired to continue my quest to rid my prayers of the trite phrases, such as nourish and strengthen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent analysis. Thank you very much. I now feel inspired to continue my quest to rid my prayers of the trite phrases, such as nourish and strengthen.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
<!-- WP Super Cache is installed but broken. The path to wp-cache-phase1.php in wp-content/advanced-cache.php must be fixed! -->
