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	<title>Comments on: AWOL: The Threefold Mission of the Church</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/07/awol-the-threefold-mission-of-the-church/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Dennis</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/07/awol-the-threefold-mission-of-the-church/#comment-295879</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 00:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8866#comment-295879</guid>
		<description>When I thnk of redeeming the dead (and I am a member of the Church in good standing) I cannot understand what it really means.  The Thesaurus in &quot;Word&quot; uses the words release, liberate, free, emancipate, deliver, rescue, and save.  What condition are our kindred dead in that they need to be rescued.  Are we saying that they are all in prison and only through our works they can be released?  I think some other words could be used to better-describe what we are doing.  The non-mormon world cannot understand the word &quot;redeem.&quot;  I have always referred to Temple ordinances as &quot;doing work for the dead.&quot;  I think a lot of the dead may think of the ordinances as helping them....but &quot;redeeming&quot; them or releasing them from some &quot;detention&quot; seems pretty presumtive to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I thnk of redeeming the dead (and I am a member of the Church in good standing) I cannot understand what it really means.  The Thesaurus in &#8220;Word&#8221; uses the words release, liberate, free, emancipate, deliver, rescue, and save.  What condition are our kindred dead in that they need to be rescued.  Are we saying that they are all in prison and only through our works they can be released?  I think some other words could be used to better-describe what we are doing.  The non-mormon world cannot understand the word &#8220;redeem.&#8221;  I have always referred to Temple ordinances as &#8220;doing work for the dead.&#8221;  I think a lot of the dead may think of the ordinances as helping them&#8230;.but &#8220;redeeming&#8221; them or releasing them from some &#8220;detention&#8221; seems pretty presumtive to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Kruiser</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/07/awol-the-threefold-mission-of-the-church/#comment-295613</link>
		<dc:creator>Kruiser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:15:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8866#comment-295613</guid>
		<description>Just recently our new HP Group Leader announced that the committees would be reinstituted. As a former HP Group Leader, when the committees were in their prime, I experienced the same problems as mentioned here. One thing that kept them more or less alive was that we met during the last half of quorum meeting on the first Sunday of the month.

Thinking about the three missions, I did some mental calculating trying to figure how much of our (adult) man and woman hours are spent on each of them. I am not a great calculator, so others may come up with different numbers. As a percentage, I think perfecting the saints takes about 90% of our man and woman hours. Proclaiming the Gospel 9%, and redeeming the dead 1%. Well that last one might go to 2 or 3% depending on the dedication. Anyhow, as a former Ward Mission Leader, we got to talking about that 9% from time to time and wondered if our proselyting and retention efforts could use a change in that percentage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just recently our new HP Group Leader announced that the committees would be reinstituted. As a former HP Group Leader, when the committees were in their prime, I experienced the same problems as mentioned here. One thing that kept them more or less alive was that we met during the last half of quorum meeting on the first Sunday of the month.</p>
<p>Thinking about the three missions, I did some mental calculating trying to figure how much of our (adult) man and woman hours are spent on each of them. I am not a great calculator, so others may come up with different numbers. As a percentage, I think perfecting the saints takes about 90% of our man and woman hours. Proclaiming the Gospel 9%, and redeeming the dead 1%. Well that last one might go to 2 or 3% depending on the dedication. Anyhow, as a former Ward Mission Leader, we got to talking about that 9% from time to time and wondered if our proselyting and retention efforts could use a change in that percentage.</p>
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		<title>By: Raymond Takashi Swenson</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/07/awol-the-threefold-mission-of-the-church/#comment-295601</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond Takashi Swenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 00:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8866#comment-295601</guid>
		<description>Many of the Protestant Mega-churches are finding that their focus on bringing people to accept Jesus as their savior, to the exclusion of teaching them what to do with themselves afterward, has led to disaffection and loss of long term members.  

What I always liked about the phraseology of the &quot;three-fold mission&quot; was the reminder that we as members of christ&#039;s church have an obligation toward ALL of god&#039;s children.  We aren&#039;t justified in thinking that we can let the rest of the world go to hell (literally).  And we must not forget that the duty to seal parents to children is about saving OURSELVES as much as those who have died.  

This of course does not mean that we split up our time equally three ways.  When we are young missionaries we are 95% working on saving those outside the Church.  When we are a leader in Relief Society, we are concentrating on helping those within the Church.  But we should not forget that, between our callings and our individual and family efforts, we are collectively working together to save and exalt ALL of God&#039;s children, to bring them, living and dead, Saint and otherwise, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many of the Protestant Mega-churches are finding that their focus on bringing people to accept Jesus as their savior, to the exclusion of teaching them what to do with themselves afterward, has led to disaffection and loss of long term members.  </p>
<p>What I always liked about the phraseology of the &#8220;three-fold mission&#8221; was the reminder that we as members of christ&#8217;s church have an obligation toward ALL of god&#8217;s children.  We aren&#8217;t justified in thinking that we can let the rest of the world go to hell (literally).  And we must not forget that the duty to seal parents to children is about saving OURSELVES as much as those who have died.  </p>
<p>This of course does not mean that we split up our time equally three ways.  When we are young missionaries we are 95% working on saving those outside the Church.  When we are a leader in Relief Society, we are concentrating on helping those within the Church.  But we should not forget that, between our callings and our individual and family efforts, we are collectively working together to save and exalt ALL of God&#8217;s children, to bring them, living and dead, Saint and otherwise, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.</p>
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		<title>By: DavidH</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/07/awol-the-threefold-mission-of-the-church/#comment-295461</link>
		<dc:creator>DavidH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8866#comment-295461</guid>
		<description>I am uncomfortable with the wording of &quot;perfect the Saints&quot; and prefer President Benson&#039;s wording of &quot;strengthening the members&quot;.  

I am uncomfortable (1) because I think it indirectly feeds the perfectionism that is common in our LDS culture, and (2) because I think it may lead to a fundamental misunderstanding of the gospel.  That is, one might take it to mean that it is by coming to the Church that one is perfected, rather than by coming to Christ--that the Church perfects people rather than Christ&#039;s perfecting people.  For many, of course, the Church and God are the same--and implying that coming to the Church is the same thing as coming to Christ supports that position.  

I like to think that perhaps it is because of the re-emphasis on the Book of Mormon, which teaches the principle of coming to Christ directly in order to become &quot;perfected in Him&quot; that, to some extent the prime mission of the Church--helping bring people to Christ--is more emphasized than three components that were devised or determined in the 1980s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am uncomfortable with the wording of &#8220;perfect the Saints&#8221; and prefer President Benson&#8217;s wording of &#8220;strengthening the members&#8221;.  </p>
<p>I am uncomfortable (1) because I think it indirectly feeds the perfectionism that is common in our LDS culture, and (2) because I think it may lead to a fundamental misunderstanding of the gospel.  That is, one might take it to mean that it is by coming to the Church that one is perfected, rather than by coming to Christ&#8211;that the Church perfects people rather than Christ&#8217;s perfecting people.  For many, of course, the Church and God are the same&#8211;and implying that coming to the Church is the same thing as coming to Christ supports that position.  </p>
<p>I like to think that perhaps it is because of the re-emphasis on the Book of Mormon, which teaches the principle of coming to Christ directly in order to become &#8220;perfected in Him&#8221; that, to some extent the prime mission of the Church&#8211;helping bring people to Christ&#8211;is more emphasized than three components that were devised or determined in the 1980s.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris O'Keefe</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/07/awol-the-threefold-mission-of-the-church/#comment-295456</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris O'Keefe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 19:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8866#comment-295456</guid>
		<description>FWIW, Pres. Donaldson of the CA San Diego Mission recently gave a talk at our Stake Conference (San Diego North Stake) in which he pointed out that if you look, you&#039;ll notice that the phrase &quot;three-fold mission of the church&quot; hasn&#039;t been mentioned by general authorities in conference since the mid-90s or so.  He pointed out that they have abandoned the phrase in favor of something akin to &quot;Inviting People to Christ.&quot;

Of course, I can&#039;t find any information that points out what his full name is, etc.  He said he learned this from his work with the church before his mission; the missionaries often point out that he worked closely with the First Presidency, Apostles and General Authorities before his mission.  IIRC, he made a similar point. I realize that this rings with unconfirmability and hearsay, so take it for what you will.  It sounded pretty authoritative to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, Pres. Donaldson of the CA San Diego Mission recently gave a talk at our Stake Conference (San Diego North Stake) in which he pointed out that if you look, you&#8217;ll notice that the phrase &#8220;three-fold mission of the church&#8221; hasn&#8217;t been mentioned by general authorities in conference since the mid-90s or so.  He pointed out that they have abandoned the phrase in favor of something akin to &#8220;Inviting People to Christ.&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course, I can&#8217;t find any information that points out what his full name is, etc.  He said he learned this from his work with the church before his mission; the missionaries often point out that he worked closely with the First Presidency, Apostles and General Authorities before his mission.  IIRC, he made a similar point. I realize that this rings with unconfirmability and hearsay, so take it for what you will.  It sounded pretty authoritative to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Cook</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/07/awol-the-threefold-mission-of-the-church/#comment-295453</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Cook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 19:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8866#comment-295453</guid>
		<description>I do agree with you that there should be more focus on humanitarian aid. I know that, on the worldwide level, there is quite a bit of humanitarian aid. When large disasters occur, the church leadership does a great job. It&#039;s when we get to the ward/stake level, it&#039;s not so well done. Your examples are good ones. When was the last time you heard of an ELQ activity to work at the soup kitchen or any of those other programs? My wife&#039;s young womens program worked a soup kitchen one time, but I haven&#039;t heard of anyone else doing this. I think that sort of thing should be emphasized more. 

I think the threefold mission is great, but at the same time it is really broad. It leaves a lot open for interpretation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do agree with you that there should be more focus on humanitarian aid. I know that, on the worldwide level, there is quite a bit of humanitarian aid. When large disasters occur, the church leadership does a great job. It&#8217;s when we get to the ward/stake level, it&#8217;s not so well done. Your examples are good ones. When was the last time you heard of an ELQ activity to work at the soup kitchen or any of those other programs? My wife&#8217;s young womens program worked a soup kitchen one time, but I haven&#8217;t heard of anyone else doing this. I think that sort of thing should be emphasized more. </p>
<p>I think the threefold mission is great, but at the same time it is really broad. It leaves a lot open for interpretation.</p>
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		<title>By: Horatio</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/07/awol-the-threefold-mission-of-the-church/#comment-295450</link>
		<dc:creator>Horatio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 18:26:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8866#comment-295450</guid>
		<description>Ian,  I guess I would call it &quot;help the needy&quot;, &quot;ease suffering&quot;, or &quot;improve the world&quot;, something along those lines.  I agree that humanitarian aid is implied, but presenting the mission statement this way, I think, gives members the impression that the ONLY way the Church (as an organization) can help non-members is by converting them.  At the risk of steadying the ark, I guess I would like to show my non-member friends a local soup kitchen, battered women&#039;s shelter, job training program or something that is supported by the Church but directly benefits the community, not just members.

To be fair, maybe I should be supporting those kinds of programs and telling my non-member friends I do so because the Church teaches me to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian,  I guess I would call it &#8220;help the needy&#8221;, &#8220;ease suffering&#8221;, or &#8220;improve the world&#8221;, something along those lines.  I agree that humanitarian aid is implied, but presenting the mission statement this way, I think, gives members the impression that the ONLY way the Church (as an organization) can help non-members is by converting them.  At the risk of steadying the ark, I guess I would like to show my non-member friends a local soup kitchen, battered women&#8217;s shelter, job training program or something that is supported by the Church but directly benefits the community, not just members.</p>
<p>To be fair, maybe I should be supporting those kinds of programs and telling my non-member friends I do so because the Church teaches me to.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Cook</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/07/awol-the-threefold-mission-of-the-church/#comment-295448</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Cook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:54:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8866#comment-295448</guid>
		<description>Horatio, 

If you could create a fourth mission that would include things you talked about (service), then what would you call it?

In my opinion, humanitarian aid falls under proclaiming the gospel and under perfecting the saints, take your pick. Humanitarian aid is implied in the threefold mission of the church, just as passing the sacrament is implied.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Horatio, </p>
<p>If you could create a fourth mission that would include things you talked about (service), then what would you call it?</p>
<p>In my opinion, humanitarian aid falls under proclaiming the gospel and under perfecting the saints, take your pick. Humanitarian aid is implied in the threefold mission of the church, just as passing the sacrament is implied.</p>
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		<title>By: Horatio</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/07/awol-the-threefold-mission-of-the-church/#comment-295447</link>
		<dc:creator>Horatio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8866#comment-295447</guid>
		<description>One thing that I struggle with is where humanitarian service falls as a Church function.  When the Church helps hurricane victims, which part of the mission statement does that fall under?  Proclaim the gospel?  Does the Church not have a mission of helping just to help, or is it always part of a missionary effort?

Or does it fall under Perfect the Saints?  Serving others is a way to perfect ourselves.  Would that mean that humanitarian aid is an individual obligation, and the Church as an organization only encourages/facilitates individual efforts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing that I struggle with is where humanitarian service falls as a Church function.  When the Church helps hurricane victims, which part of the mission statement does that fall under?  Proclaim the gospel?  Does the Church not have a mission of helping just to help, or is it always part of a missionary effort?</p>
<p>Or does it fall under Perfect the Saints?  Serving others is a way to perfect ourselves.  Would that mean that humanitarian aid is an individual obligation, and the Church as an organization only encourages/facilitates individual efforts?</p>
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		<title>By: Bert</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/07/awol-the-threefold-mission-of-the-church/#comment-295443</link>
		<dc:creator>Bert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 14:43:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8866#comment-295443</guid>
		<description>Mike,

I&#039;m happy to read that you, as EQP, served faithfully and did all you could to fulfill the three-fold mission of the Church.  By using the appropriate resources available in your Ward to accomplish missionary work, temple work, and ministering to the members of your Quorum, it sounds as though you were doing all that could be done to appropriately emphasize each of these three missions of the Church.

I think that you are confusing Church programs with Gospel principles when you so vehemently denounce the three-fold mission of the Church.  The mission of the Church is to bring souls to Christ - the living and the dead, the member and the non-member, the active member and the less-active member.  The three-fold mission of the Church, as stated by &quot;windy GA&quot;s, such as Paul the Apostle in ancient times to modern-day Prophets in our time, serves to remind us of our duty to serve all of Heavenly Father&#039;s children.  When I served as EQP, I also found that the committee system was poorly suited to the Quorum.  Instead, each us in the Presidency focused on a different area of the three-fold mission of the Church.  As President, I focused on perfecting the Saints.  One counselor focused on temple worship; the other on missionary work.  Just because the Church program for accomplishing the mission of the Church doesn&#039;t fit your situation, you don&#039;t throw out the mission of the Church; rather, you use your available resources to fulfill your calling as best you can.  And actually, it sounds like that is exactly what you did when you served as EQP.

With respect to your final paragraph, I am not aware of any &quot;windy GA&quot; who states that going to the temple is more important than being a good father and spending time with your children.  With the number of temples around the world, most members can probably attend the temple monthly and have it not interfere significantly with their family life.  In fact, the example set by the parents by regular temple attendance will teach their children the importance of the temple, making it an important part of their lives.  When I travel with my family, we always try to visit the local temple.  My oldest daughter is studying at Cambridge University in the UK this summer, and she is planning on doing baptisms for the dead while there.  Doing a reasonable amount of temple work can only strengthen the family.

I agree that over-emphasis of temple work can be detrimental to the family.  But ignoring temple work and missionary work is also detrimental.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m happy to read that you, as EQP, served faithfully and did all you could to fulfill the three-fold mission of the Church.  By using the appropriate resources available in your Ward to accomplish missionary work, temple work, and ministering to the members of your Quorum, it sounds as though you were doing all that could be done to appropriately emphasize each of these three missions of the Church.</p>
<p>I think that you are confusing Church programs with Gospel principles when you so vehemently denounce the three-fold mission of the Church.  The mission of the Church is to bring souls to Christ &#8211; the living and the dead, the member and the non-member, the active member and the less-active member.  The three-fold mission of the Church, as stated by &#8220;windy GA&#8221;s, such as Paul the Apostle in ancient times to modern-day Prophets in our time, serves to remind us of our duty to serve all of Heavenly Father&#8217;s children.  When I served as EQP, I also found that the committee system was poorly suited to the Quorum.  Instead, each us in the Presidency focused on a different area of the three-fold mission of the Church.  As President, I focused on perfecting the Saints.  One counselor focused on temple worship; the other on missionary work.  Just because the Church program for accomplishing the mission of the Church doesn&#8217;t fit your situation, you don&#8217;t throw out the mission of the Church; rather, you use your available resources to fulfill your calling as best you can.  And actually, it sounds like that is exactly what you did when you served as EQP.</p>
<p>With respect to your final paragraph, I am not aware of any &#8220;windy GA&#8221; who states that going to the temple is more important than being a good father and spending time with your children.  With the number of temples around the world, most members can probably attend the temple monthly and have it not interfere significantly with their family life.  In fact, the example set by the parents by regular temple attendance will teach their children the importance of the temple, making it an important part of their lives.  When I travel with my family, we always try to visit the local temple.  My oldest daughter is studying at Cambridge University in the UK this summer, and she is planning on doing baptisms for the dead while there.  Doing a reasonable amount of temple work can only strengthen the family.</p>
<p>I agree that over-emphasis of temple work can be detrimental to the family.  But ignoring temple work and missionary work is also detrimental.</p>
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