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	<title>Comments on: Mormon Manners</title>
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	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: msg</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/mormon-manners/#comment-292672</link>
		<dc:creator>msg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 04:50:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Manners show consideration for the people whose company you find yourself in.  Which is why we try to learn about different cultures before we visit them and do as they do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Manners show consideration for the people whose company you find yourself in.  Which is why we try to learn about different cultures before we visit them and do as they do.</p>
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		<title>By: Kylie</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/mormon-manners/#comment-292041</link>
		<dc:creator>Kylie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 02:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8277#comment-292041</guid>
		<description>Thanks 15. That raises more questions than it answers, I suppose. I&#039;m looking up the Richard Florida blog right now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks 15. That raises more questions than it answers, I suppose. I&#8217;m looking up the Richard Florida blog right now.</p>
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		<title>By: Justmeherenow</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/mormon-manners/#comment-292009</link>
		<dc:creator>Justmeherenow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 20:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8277#comment-292009</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;What is ... classiness?&lt;/i&gt;

Much of any truly philosophical analysis of manners tends to focus on one pole, that of morality/ethics. However, I think the other pole, that of symbolic social custom, is equally important.  

For example (again, sorry!) dress -- specifically, menswear: What is the purpose of wearing a necktie? It&#039;s &lt;i&gt;real&lt;/i&gt; purpose IMO was to cover up the front fasteners on a shirt. (As I&#039;ve deduced from having read somewhere that it was men&#039;s &lt;i&gt;military&lt;/i&gt; blouses that were the first to fasten up the front -- since a gentleman in the field would have no family member or valet along to fasten him up the back. Therefore, once such shirts become the norm among men generally, to avoid &quot;tacky&quot; -ness ((get it?)) of showing off these fasteners now at the front, a gentleman would finish off his ensemble with a scarf about his neck(?)) But what it really signifies is something drenched in symbolic custom. It means -- formality. 

Sometime symbolic customs supply boundaries necessary for the maintanance of communities. Othertimes they are merely expectations. 

&#039;&#039;Eg&#039;&#039; wrt boundaries (A) certain requirements must be met in order to claim the rights and responsibilities of US citizenship; and (B) baptism is required for entrance into many Christian churches. 

&quot;When did your family become US &#039;citizens&#039;?&quot; 

&quot;I was born in the States in &#039;56; my wife became naturalized in the mid-&#039;90s.&quot;

&quot;How did she do that?&quot;

&quot;She held up her right hand and said some words. Then I&#039;m pretty sure somebody entered her name upon some official register somewhere.&quot;

&quot;Oh, I see. And is your family &#039;Christian&#039;?&quot;

&quot;Well, we &lt;i&gt;have&lt;/i&gt; been formally recognized as ones who have been symbolically washed and reborn into our acceptance of the customs and fellowship within the community of believers in Christ.&quot;

&quot;Can you tell me something about your practices as a Christian?&quot; 

&quot;Well, on Sunday morning we both get up, she gets ready and puts on a dress, I put on a white shirt and a necktie....&quot; 

&quot;Wow, all that is required?&quot;

&quot;No, not really. But it is a custom genearlly in my Latter-day Saint community. But, I think someone could be a fully straightlaced Mormon in practice and/or one who&#039;s very orthodox in belief and go to church dressed in bluejeans and a teeshirt, I&#039;m pretty sure. And, someone could be at church in a fine suit and be a real scoundrel and/or extremely heterodox in belief, on the other hand, as well.&quot;

- - -

FROM the WPædia article &quot;Tzniut&quot;: &quot;[... ...]&lt;i&gt; Style of dress involves cultural considerations distinct from religious requirements. There are many Conservative and Reform synagogues in which suits and ties are socially expected, while there are many Orthodox synagogues (especially in Israel) where dress, while meeting religious modesty requirements, is quite casual.&lt;/i&gt; [... ...]&quot;

Would this be because the folks at some synagogues consider formal attire a marker of respect (dressing at one&#039;s religious services as one would in one&#039;s culture to meet a dignitary)? Whereas others see a come-as-you-are type thing as more egalitarian, more -- &quot;class-less&quot;?

- - -

A GUEST blogpost by Richard Florida at Andrew Sullivan&#039;s blog today starts: &lt;i&gt;&quot;Why Class Still Matters. Class is a word that elicits strong, and sometimes strange, reactions from many Americans. Once a powerful construct understanding economies and societies, class has been all but banished from the lexicon of social scientists and from the public conversation.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>What is &#8230; classiness?</i></p>
<p>Much of any truly philosophical analysis of manners tends to focus on one pole, that of morality/ethics. However, I think the other pole, that of symbolic social custom, is equally important.  </p>
<p>For example (again, sorry!) dress &#8212; specifically, menswear: What is the purpose of wearing a necktie? It&#8217;s <i>real</i> purpose IMO was to cover up the front fasteners on a shirt. (As I&#8217;ve deduced from having read somewhere that it was men&#8217;s <i>military</i> blouses that were the first to fasten up the front &#8212; since a gentleman in the field would have no family member or valet along to fasten him up the back. Therefore, once such shirts become the norm among men generally, to avoid &#8220;tacky&#8221; -ness ((get it?)) of showing off these fasteners now at the front, a gentleman would finish off his ensemble with a scarf about his neck(?)) But what it really signifies is something drenched in symbolic custom. It means &#8212; formality. </p>
<p>Sometime symbolic customs supply boundaries necessary for the maintanance of communities. Othertimes they are merely expectations. </p>
<p>&#8221;Eg&#8221; wrt boundaries (A) certain requirements must be met in order to claim the rights and responsibilities of US citizenship; and (B) baptism is required for entrance into many Christian churches. </p>
<p>&#8220;When did your family become US &#8216;citizens&#8217;?&#8221; </p>
<p>&#8220;I was born in the States in &#8217;56; my wife became naturalized in the mid-&#8217;90s.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;How did she do that?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;She held up her right hand and said some words. Then I&#8217;m pretty sure somebody entered her name upon some official register somewhere.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Oh, I see. And is your family &#8216;Christian&#8217;?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Well, we <i>have</i> been formally recognized as ones who have been symbolically washed and reborn into our acceptance of the customs and fellowship within the community of believers in Christ.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Can you tell me something about your practices as a Christian?&#8221; </p>
<p>&#8220;Well, on Sunday morning we both get up, she gets ready and puts on a dress, I put on a white shirt and a necktie&#8230;.&#8221; </p>
<p>&#8220;Wow, all that is required?&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;No, not really. But it is a custom genearlly in my Latter-day Saint community. But, I think someone could be a fully straightlaced Mormon in practice and/or one who&#8217;s very orthodox in belief and go to church dressed in bluejeans and a teeshirt, I&#8217;m pretty sure. And, someone could be at church in a fine suit and be a real scoundrel and/or extremely heterodox in belief, on the other hand, as well.&#8221;</p>
<p>- &#8211; -</p>
<p>FROM the WPædia article &#8220;Tzniut&#8221;: &#8220;[... ...]<i> Style of dress involves cultural considerations distinct from religious requirements. There are many Conservative and Reform synagogues in which suits and ties are socially expected, while there are many Orthodox synagogues (especially in Israel) where dress, while meeting religious modesty requirements, is quite casual.</i> [... ...]&#8221;</p>
<p>Would this be because the folks at some synagogues consider formal attire a marker of respect (dressing at one&#8217;s religious services as one would in one&#8217;s culture to meet a dignitary)? Whereas others see a come-as-you-are type thing as more egalitarian, more &#8212; &#8220;class-less&#8221;?</p>
<p>- &#8211; -</p>
<p>A GUEST blogpost by Richard Florida at Andrew Sullivan&#8217;s blog today starts: <i>&#8220;Why Class Still Matters. Class is a word that elicits strong, and sometimes strange, reactions from many Americans. Once a powerful construct understanding economies and societies, class has been all but banished from the lexicon of social scientists and from the public conversation.&#8221;</i></p>
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		<title>By: Cynthia L.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/mormon-manners/#comment-291979</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynthia L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 17:57:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8277#comment-291979</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a huge fan of manners but find myself usually recoiling from the biggest promoters of manners and manners training. People who have great manners are so nice to be around, but people who evangelize manners I often find to be very unpleasant people. I think some of the above discussion is useful in picking apart why that is. While guidelines are helpful, it is so easy to become overly concerned with the superficial and miss the whole point. 

Also, I instinctively recoil anytime I hear the word &quot;breeding&quot; used in any context involving humans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a huge fan of manners but find myself usually recoiling from the biggest promoters of manners and manners training. People who have great manners are so nice to be around, but people who evangelize manners I often find to be very unpleasant people. I think some of the above discussion is useful in picking apart why that is. While guidelines are helpful, it is so easy to become overly concerned with the superficial and miss the whole point. </p>
<p>Also, I instinctively recoil anytime I hear the word &#8220;breeding&#8221; used in any context involving humans.</p>
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		<title>By: Aloysiusmiller</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/mormon-manners/#comment-291978</link>
		<dc:creator>Aloysiusmiller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 17:50:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8277#comment-291978</guid>
		<description>11 by all means. Parents get a free pass on teaching children manners. But in hindsight teaching them in a mannerly way has a huge impact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>11 by all means. Parents get a free pass on teaching children manners. But in hindsight teaching them in a mannerly way has a huge impact.</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/mormon-manners/#comment-291967</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 15:25:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8277#comment-291967</guid>
		<description>Yes, Kylie, I agree that friction can develop when teaching good manners but while trying to be good mannered.  Crossing the line defeats the purpose.  For example, when I&#039;m yelling at the kids to &quot;Get in here now!&quot; for Family Home Evening and I&#039;m royally ticked off at them, it feels pretty lousy to then start a lesson on &quot;Kindness.&quot;  Your comment just reminds me of the fact that being a parent is tough, tough work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Kylie, I agree that friction can develop when teaching good manners but while trying to be good mannered.  Crossing the line defeats the purpose.  For example, when I&#8217;m yelling at the kids to &#8220;Get in here now!&#8221; for Family Home Evening and I&#8217;m royally ticked off at them, it feels pretty lousy to then start a lesson on &#8220;Kindness.&#8221;  Your comment just reminds me of the fact that being a parent is tough, tough work.</p>
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		<title>By: Kylie</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/mormon-manners/#comment-291964</link>
		<dc:creator>Kylie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 13:59:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8277#comment-291964</guid>
		<description>While I agree, Aloysius and Wm, I have to point out that--as a mother of five young children--I spend much of my day &quot;helping&quot; them see that they need to be more mannerly, which is, no doubt, a very critical thing to do. 

We talk constantly about not hurting others through our actions and words, and, yes, we even talk about not chewing with our mouths open and about answering the phone politely (not &quot;yeah?&quot;). We try to engage in &quot;polite conversation&quot; at the dinner table and mom (me) will probably point it out if one of us has been talking about Pokemon for ten straight minutes or some such thing.

It seems to me that raising mannerly children means I have to determine what is and what is not appropriate. That makes me critical, doesn&#039;t it? The most unmannerly thing of all? Please advise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I agree, Aloysius and Wm, I have to point out that&#8211;as a mother of five young children&#8211;I spend much of my day &#8220;helping&#8221; them see that they need to be more mannerly, which is, no doubt, a very critical thing to do. </p>
<p>We talk constantly about not hurting others through our actions and words, and, yes, we even talk about not chewing with our mouths open and about answering the phone politely (not &#8220;yeah?&#8221;). We try to engage in &#8220;polite conversation&#8221; at the dinner table and mom (me) will probably point it out if one of us has been talking about Pokemon for ten straight minutes or some such thing.</p>
<p>It seems to me that raising mannerly children means I have to determine what is and what is not appropriate. That makes me critical, doesn&#8217;t it? The most unmannerly thing of all? Please advise.</p>
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		<title>By: SilverRain</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/mormon-manners/#comment-291962</link>
		<dc:creator>SilverRain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 13:50:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8277#comment-291962</guid>
		<description>True manners can be summarized into one sentence: Consideration for others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True manners can be summarized into one sentence: Consideration for others.</p>
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		<title>By: Wm Jas</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/mormon-manners/#comment-291949</link>
		<dc:creator>Wm Jas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 03:34:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8277#comment-291949</guid>
		<description>Agreed, Aloysius. Criticizing someone else&#039;s manners is not only uncharitable but, somewhat ironically, low class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed, Aloysius. Criticizing someone else&#8217;s manners is not only uncharitable but, somewhat ironically, low class.</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/mormon-manners/#comment-291942</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 01:46:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8277#comment-291942</guid>
		<description>As my kids&#039; book, &quot;Richard Scarry&#039;s Polite Elephant&quot; has taught me: having good manners and being polite is just another way of saying that you are trying to be considerate of others.  So, to the extent our rules of social etiquette are based on the Golden Rule, then, yes, I&#039;d say that good manners *are* gospel.

A lot of the peripheral rules, like tipping one&#039;s hat, or using the correct fork, or burping at the dinner table, seem to be unique to particular cultures and societies.  To what extent we will have multiple cultures in the next life, and thus multiple rules for manners, I don&#039;t know.  And so I don&#039;t know that I can say that these &quot;lesser&quot; manners are gospel or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As my kids&#8217; book, &#8220;Richard Scarry&#8217;s Polite Elephant&#8221; has taught me: having good manners and being polite is just another way of saying that you are trying to be considerate of others.  So, to the extent our rules of social etiquette are based on the Golden Rule, then, yes, I&#8217;d say that good manners *are* gospel.</p>
<p>A lot of the peripheral rules, like tipping one&#8217;s hat, or using the correct fork, or burping at the dinner table, seem to be unique to particular cultures and societies.  To what extent we will have multiple cultures in the next life, and thus multiple rules for manners, I don&#8217;t know.  And so I don&#8217;t know that I can say that these &#8220;lesser&#8221; manners are gospel or not.</p>
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