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	<title>Comments on: Creativity as a Religious Virtue</title>
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	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Wm Jas</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/creativity-as-a-religious-virtue/#comment-291948</link>
		<dc:creator>Wm Jas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 03:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8258#comment-291948</guid>
		<description>Good points, Craig.

I guess what I&#039;m getting at is that creativity -- or attachment to one&#039;s own creativity -- is often a close cousin to pride.

Again, Iris Murdoch&#039;s novels come to mind. &quot;We aren&#039;t conventional people,&quot; her well-meaning intellectual protagonists keep reminding themselves, and when some moral dilemma confronts them, they try to come up with some creative, &quot;enlightened&quot; solution in keeping with their own special genius, rather than going with the obvious course of action (somehow déclassé in its simplicity) that any child could see is right.

Of course I&#039;m not trying to say that creativity is a bad thing, or (as Blake famously said with reference to Milton) that all true poets are of the devil&#039;s party, but neither do I think it can be considered an absolute virtue.

(I agree, by the way, that everyone accepts received ideas. But I think one is likely to adhere to them more closely -- or at least more consciously -- if they are thought to be of supernatural origin.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points, Craig.</p>
<p>I guess what I&#8217;m getting at is that creativity &#8212; or attachment to one&#8217;s own creativity &#8212; is often a close cousin to pride.</p>
<p>Again, Iris Murdoch&#8217;s novels come to mind. &#8220;We aren&#8217;t conventional people,&#8221; her well-meaning intellectual protagonists keep reminding themselves, and when some moral dilemma confronts them, they try to come up with some creative, &#8220;enlightened&#8221; solution in keeping with their own special genius, rather than going with the obvious course of action (somehow déclassé in its simplicity) that any child could see is right.</p>
<p>Of course I&#8217;m not trying to say that creativity is a bad thing, or (as Blake famously said with reference to Milton) that all true poets are of the devil&#8217;s party, but neither do I think it can be considered an absolute virtue.</p>
<p>(I agree, by the way, that everyone accepts received ideas. But I think one is likely to adhere to them more closely &#8212; or at least more consciously &#8212; if they are thought to be of supernatural origin.)</p>
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		<title>By: Craig H.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/creativity-as-a-religious-virtue/#comment-291930</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 May 2009 20:33:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8258#comment-291930</guid>
		<description>Wm Jas, interesting points. I have a few quibbles. No one founds a religion from scratch, not really, as all are connected to some previous model(s). Moreover, we all (religious or not) accept (graciously or not) &quot;received ideas,&quot; including in whatever culture or family we&#039;re born into. I agree it&#039;s not a good idea simply to reject those ideas, because they&#039;re obviously the product of much testing and thought, but I&#039;m not convinced that the point is to discover what&#039;s received and stop there, or that all of it is necessarily right for you, or that it necessarily covers everything that will arise in your life. You&#039;ve got to test them, and find new ones as well. The Tannaitic rabbi example is a good one.

As for tension between creativity and religion---I guess I&#039;m questioning whether the two are necessarily distinct. It depends on how you define either one, and I&#039;ve tried to define creativity within the umbrella of religion. Obviously creativity per se is neither good nor bad, and can be used for either, but the point is that it&#039;s crucial, in my mind, for good. There will always be tension between the individual and the institution, but that isn&#039;t necessarily bad, because as with the Tannaitic rabbis tension can lead to great creativity. The choice you suggest between leading an interesting life and a moral life is also dubious to me, and also depends on how you define either term. Is Murdoch maybe arguing against narcissism rather than individuality, which to me are not the same thing? The best sort of individuality isn&#039;t self-centered, but self- and other-centered at the same time: love your neighbor as yourself implies equal importance, not one above the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wm Jas, interesting points. I have a few quibbles. No one founds a religion from scratch, not really, as all are connected to some previous model(s). Moreover, we all (religious or not) accept (graciously or not) &#8220;received ideas,&#8221; including in whatever culture or family we&#8217;re born into. I agree it&#8217;s not a good idea simply to reject those ideas, because they&#8217;re obviously the product of much testing and thought, but I&#8217;m not convinced that the point is to discover what&#8217;s received and stop there, or that all of it is necessarily right for you, or that it necessarily covers everything that will arise in your life. You&#8217;ve got to test them, and find new ones as well. The Tannaitic rabbi example is a good one.</p>
<p>As for tension between creativity and religion&#8212;I guess I&#8217;m questioning whether the two are necessarily distinct. It depends on how you define either one, and I&#8217;ve tried to define creativity within the umbrella of religion. Obviously creativity per se is neither good nor bad, and can be used for either, but the point is that it&#8217;s crucial, in my mind, for good. There will always be tension between the individual and the institution, but that isn&#8217;t necessarily bad, because as with the Tannaitic rabbis tension can lead to great creativity. The choice you suggest between leading an interesting life and a moral life is also dubious to me, and also depends on how you define either term. Is Murdoch maybe arguing against narcissism rather than individuality, which to me are not the same thing? The best sort of individuality isn&#8217;t self-centered, but self- and other-centered at the same time: love your neighbor as yourself implies equal importance, not one above the other.</p>
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		<title>By: Wm Jas</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/creativity-as-a-religious-virtue/#comment-291896</link>
		<dc:creator>Wm Jas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 May 2009 03:45:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8258#comment-291896</guid>
		<description>Craig, except for the few people who actually found their own religions from scratch, religion necessarily &lt;i&gt;means&lt;/i&gt; accepting received ideas. It means accepting that the collective wisdom of a religious community and tradition will probably get you closer to the true and the good than would anything you could come up with on your own. Orthodoxy is in some ways the opposite of creativity.

In some ways, but not in every way. As the great Tannaitic rabbis, perhaps more than anyone else, have demonstrated, it&#039;s quite possible to soar to breathtaking heights of creativity within the context of interpreting a received tradition. As you wrote, an idea need not be unique or original in order to be &quot;creative&quot; in a psychological sense. I&#039;m reminded of Bruce R. McConkie&#039;s famous speech in which he insists that when he quotes scripture he is using his own words. &quot;True it is that they were first proclaimed by others,&quot; he says, &quot;but they are now mine&quot;

Still, I think there will always be a certain tension between creativity and religion. When the second commandment, outranking &quot;Thou shalt not kill,&quot; is about not making graven images, that should be a hint.

Nor is creativity always conducive to morality. The fact is, virtue can be boring (think of Tolkien&#039;s Saruman opting to be &quot;many-coloured&quot; rather than plain white), which is why the most enduring literary characters (Falstaff, Hamlet, King David) are morally dubious figures almost to a man. The more creative one&#039;s temperament, the greater may be the temptation to lead an &quot;interesting&quot; life rather than a strictly moral one. This is one of the main themes of Iris Murdoch&#039;s novels  -- that often we just get too &lt;i&gt;interested&lt;/i&gt; in our own unique personalities and the drama of our lives, and it interferes with our ability to do the right thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Craig, except for the few people who actually found their own religions from scratch, religion necessarily <i>means</i> accepting received ideas. It means accepting that the collective wisdom of a religious community and tradition will probably get you closer to the true and the good than would anything you could come up with on your own. Orthodoxy is in some ways the opposite of creativity.</p>
<p>In some ways, but not in every way. As the great Tannaitic rabbis, perhaps more than anyone else, have demonstrated, it&#8217;s quite possible to soar to breathtaking heights of creativity within the context of interpreting a received tradition. As you wrote, an idea need not be unique or original in order to be &#8220;creative&#8221; in a psychological sense. I&#8217;m reminded of Bruce R. McConkie&#8217;s famous speech in which he insists that when he quotes scripture he is using his own words. &#8220;True it is that they were first proclaimed by others,&#8221; he says, &#8220;but they are now mine&#8221;</p>
<p>Still, I think there will always be a certain tension between creativity and religion. When the second commandment, outranking &#8220;Thou shalt not kill,&#8221; is about not making graven images, that should be a hint.</p>
<p>Nor is creativity always conducive to morality. The fact is, virtue can be boring (think of Tolkien&#8217;s Saruman opting to be &#8220;many-coloured&#8221; rather than plain white), which is why the most enduring literary characters (Falstaff, Hamlet, King David) are morally dubious figures almost to a man. The more creative one&#8217;s temperament, the greater may be the temptation to lead an &#8220;interesting&#8221; life rather than a strictly moral one. This is one of the main themes of Iris Murdoch&#8217;s novels  &#8212; that often we just get too <i>interested</i> in our own unique personalities and the drama of our lives, and it interferes with our ability to do the right thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig H.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/creativity-as-a-religious-virtue/#comment-291880</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 22:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8258#comment-291880</guid>
		<description>Wm Jas, I guess that&#039;s exactly why I wrote the piece, to raise in part the question of what religiosity means. I agree that the way you characterize it is the way it has often, but not always, been characterized. I&#039;m wondering whether it&#039;s the most helpful or most desirable way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wm Jas, I guess that&#8217;s exactly why I wrote the piece, to raise in part the question of what religiosity means. I agree that the way you characterize it is the way it has often, but not always, been characterized. I&#8217;m wondering whether it&#8217;s the most helpful or most desirable way.</p>
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		<title>By: Wm Jas</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/creativity-as-a-religious-virtue/#comment-291854</link>
		<dc:creator>Wm Jas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 14:29:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8258#comment-291854</guid>
		<description>Your title -- creativity as a specifically &lt;i&gt;religious&lt;/i&gt; virtue -- caught me off guard, since &quot;religion&quot; so often means obedience, deference to authority, acceptance of a received tradition. I completely agree with you, though, that creativity is indispensable when it comes to empathy and complex moral decisions, and religious people would do well to cultivate it.

I&#039;m reminded of Joseph Smith&#039;s &quot;you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me&quot; -- which could be applied to the process of living morally just as aptly as to that of receiving revelation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your title &#8212; creativity as a specifically <i>religious</i> virtue &#8212; caught me off guard, since &#8220;religion&#8221; so often means obedience, deference to authority, acceptance of a received tradition. I completely agree with you, though, that creativity is indispensable when it comes to empathy and complex moral decisions, and religious people would do well to cultivate it.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m reminded of Joseph Smith&#8217;s &#8220;you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me&#8221; &#8212; which could be applied to the process of living morally just as aptly as to that of receiving revelation.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig H.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/creativity-as-a-religious-virtue/#comment-291844</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 11:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8258#comment-291844</guid>
		<description>Thanks Carine. I wanted to add about the Arts that if they were approached more as an arena for vicarious experience, I wonder how this would affect discussions over such topics as R-rated movies? These are often discouraged in the context of the need to choose wholesome &quot;entertainment.&quot; But if the Arts were regarded as being primarily about understanding experience, especially actual experience of others, then it necessarily will include some unpleasant and difficult and challenging things, and this might be seen as a desirable and important thing to do. For what is more wholesome, in the literal sense of that word, than doing that? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Carine. I wanted to add about the Arts that if they were approached more as an arena for vicarious experience, I wonder how this would affect discussions over such topics as R-rated movies? These are often discouraged in the context of the need to choose wholesome &#8220;entertainment.&#8221; But if the Arts were regarded as being primarily about understanding experience, especially actual experience of others, then it necessarily will include some unpleasant and difficult and challenging things, and this might be seen as a desirable and important thing to do. For what is more wholesome, in the literal sense of that word, than doing that?</p>
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		<title>By: Carine</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/creativity-as-a-religious-virtue/#comment-291843</link>
		<dc:creator>Carine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 10:09:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8258#comment-291843</guid>
		<description>Craig, I have been waiting for this post a long time. You brilliantly describe my feelings about creativity, esthetics and Heavenly Father&#039;s involvement in this. We can get all poetic about this subject over a creative dinner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Craig, I have been waiting for this post a long time. You brilliantly describe my feelings about creativity, esthetics and Heavenly Father&#8217;s involvement in this. We can get all poetic about this subject over a creative dinner.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig H.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/creativity-as-a-religious-virtue/#comment-291835</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 07:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8258#comment-291835</guid>
		<description>Thanks for comments all.

Rolf, narcissism can happen in just about any endeavor, I suppose, not merely the Arts. And I wouldn&#039;t want that to be the main emphasis in discussions of the Arts: it would be like discussions of knowledge always end up focusing on not being proud, etc., so that the virtues of knowledge are shoved to the background. 

Norm, I agree that one-dimensionality isn&#039;t desirable, but I don&#039;t see how imagination can be boxed off from other virtues; part of my point was how omnipresent it might be.

DavidH, I liked that talk too, but note the setting for it...Relief Society. Any such talks in Priesthood for instance?

Hunter, I used to think this as well, and thought it merely an effort to bolster the status of Artists, but the older I get the more I see the need for imagination in everyday living, and again my point is to show its unmissable role in spirituality, rather than it being regarded as a nice ornament.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for comments all.</p>
<p>Rolf, narcissism can happen in just about any endeavor, I suppose, not merely the Arts. And I wouldn&#8217;t want that to be the main emphasis in discussions of the Arts: it would be like discussions of knowledge always end up focusing on not being proud, etc., so that the virtues of knowledge are shoved to the background. </p>
<p>Norm, I agree that one-dimensionality isn&#8217;t desirable, but I don&#8217;t see how imagination can be boxed off from other virtues; part of my point was how omnipresent it might be.</p>
<p>DavidH, I liked that talk too, but note the setting for it&#8230;Relief Society. Any such talks in Priesthood for instance?</p>
<p>Hunter, I used to think this as well, and thought it merely an effort to bolster the status of Artists, but the older I get the more I see the need for imagination in everyday living, and again my point is to show its unmissable role in spirituality, rather than it being regarded as a nice ornament.</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/creativity-as-a-religious-virtue/#comment-291834</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 06:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8258#comment-291834</guid>
		<description>I used to sort of roll my eyes whenever I would hear someone preach about how &quot;creating&quot; is God&#039;s most important attribute.  I&#039;ve mostly heard it from artists who, I felt, were being a little too self-congratulatory.  But then, after paying more attention to the hard work it is to make choices while creating something out of nothing (whether it be a memo, or a new piece of music, etc.), I have found new appreciation for this divine and difficult attribute.  (And now you&#039;ve got me thinking about creativity in terms of human relationships, too.)

I&#039;m still trying to get my head around the idea of creativity as a sort of empathy.  But I loved this great post.  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used to sort of roll my eyes whenever I would hear someone preach about how &#8220;creating&#8221; is God&#8217;s most important attribute.  I&#8217;ve mostly heard it from artists who, I felt, were being a little too self-congratulatory.  But then, after paying more attention to the hard work it is to make choices while creating something out of nothing (whether it be a memo, or a new piece of music, etc.), I have found new appreciation for this divine and difficult attribute.  (And now you&#8217;ve got me thinking about creativity in terms of human relationships, too.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m still trying to get my head around the idea of creativity as a sort of empathy.  But I loved this great post.  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: DavidH</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/creativity-as-a-religious-virtue/#comment-291825</link>
		<dc:creator>DavidH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 May 2009 01:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8258#comment-291825</guid>
		<description>President Uchtdorf included creativity as an attribute to be sought after in his talk last October in general relief society.  Dieter F. Uchtdorf, “Happiness, Your Heritage,” Ensign, Nov 2008, 117–20</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>President Uchtdorf included creativity as an attribute to be sought after in his talk last October in general relief society.  Dieter F. Uchtdorf, “Happiness, Your Heritage,” Ensign, Nov 2008, 117–20</p>
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