Comments on: 12 Questions for Marvin Perkins, Part One http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/12-questions-for-marvin-perkins-part-one/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 12 Feb 2012 07:57:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Harold http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/12-questions-for-marvin-perkins-part-one/#comment-292759 Harold Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:46:16 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8319#comment-292759 this is a very extensive evaluation of the scriptures which I feel it was an uneccessary cretic of the scriptures, we were not going on blind faith but yes it was faith, I did that same thing that J. Smith tried & yes received an answer & I believed the prophet that received the revelationnts usthe color thing or situation is a thing that happened because that was the way that we in the mtging uptop wanted it to be, the advarsary wants us to do this (cause questioning, unsureness)remember those that are weak in the faith.james1:5 this is a very extensive evaluation of the scriptures which I feel it was an uneccessary cretic of the scriptures, we were not going on blind faith but yes it was faith, I did that same thing that J. Smith tried & yes received an answer & I believed the prophet that received the revelationnts usthe color thing or situation is a thing that happened because that was the way that we in the mtging uptop wanted it to be, the advarsary wants us to do this (cause questioning, unsureness)remember those that are weak in the faith.james1:5

]]> By: synnove ellingsen http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/12-questions-for-marvin-perkins-part-one/#comment-292740 synnove ellingsen Mon, 01 Jun 2009 09:16:39 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8319#comment-292740 Anyway seems a lot of good comments here and in on the link, I also think it is necessary to invite investigators to search also in relevant material themselves, but to be given an intro to such material and questions relevant to them, to educate leaders about material that may be useful to members on some key issues, and for missionaries to emphasize the attitude of searching without to easily judgement as so many views are raised. Maybe a list should be introduced through the missionaries presenting the member to the functionning LIBRARY fascility in church in EVERY ward, that may have also some material to sell and borrow..that still will be explained to be not necessarily scripture, but usefulk information,educative.....to search from...like the study books on scriptures are, and the book about many religions and the LDS approach. I know in Australia they studied this book in a group. This coordinating of material and access to it, can be really part of the teaching process of missionaries, some basic lessons prepared about some key issues, and clear information about furtehr use of classes, firesides!, LIBRARY info..which then should exist. Missionary, ward mission leader, LIBRARIAN etc can play a very direct role in securing that material IS available and activated and need only introduce in some depth what is relevant to the particular investigator. It would vary somewhat from backgrounds..beside the standard info. I think a standard lesson on a selection of common misconceptions would have helped the new church members a lot. We all need to learn a short basic intro to church history. Many would be here if we did at an early stage. Upgrading of church 4-year studies must include material on key issues in more depth. Anyway seems a lot of good comments here and in on the link, I also think it is necessary to invite investigators to search also in relevant material themselves, but to be given an intro to such material and questions relevant to them, to educate leaders about material that may be useful to members on some key issues, and for missionaries to emphasize the attitude of searching without to easily judgement as so many views are raised. Maybe a list should be introduced through the missionaries presenting the member to the functionning LIBRARY fascility in church in EVERY ward, that may have also some material to sell and borrow..that still will be explained to be not necessarily scripture, but usefulk information,educative…..to search from…like the study books on scriptures are, and the book about many religions and the LDS approach. I know in Australia they studied this book in a group. This coordinating of material and access to it, can be really part of the teaching process of missionaries, some basic lessons prepared about some key issues, and clear information about furtehr use of classes, firesides!, LIBRARY info..which then should exist.
Missionary, ward mission leader, LIBRARIAN etc can play a very direct role in securing that material IS available and activated and need only introduce in some depth what is relevant to the particular investigator. It would vary somewhat from backgrounds..beside the standard info. I think a standard lesson on a selection of common misconceptions would have helped the new church members a lot. We all need to learn a short basic intro to church history. Many would be here if we did at an early stage. Upgrading of church 4-year studies must include material on key issues in more depth.

]]> By: synnove ellingsen http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/12-questions-for-marvin-perkins-part-one/#comment-292721 synnove ellingsen Sun, 31 May 2009 23:10:22 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8319#comment-292721 Welcome to a fireside in UK!! I would love to see firesides on this material herein UK ..and I have suggested it through the PA for UK. HIgh time to air this in a friendly larger group of LDS over here....so I hope we can have some venue here in not too long. Welcome to a fireside in UK!!
I would love to see firesides on this material herein UK ..and I have suggested it through the PA for UK. HIgh time to air this in a friendly larger group of LDS over here….so I hope we can have some venue here in not too long.

]]> By: Jule Teasley http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/12-questions-for-marvin-perkins-part-one/#comment-292679 Jule Teasley Sat, 30 May 2009 10:46:59 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8319#comment-292679 I was asked why the retention rates among blacks and other minorities is so dismal. When I asked the same questions I had posed to you, some were ignored and others were spun to semantics. Another symbolic move was patronization. The insinuation was that because I hadn't been an LDS for many years and was "only a mere investigator" that I was somehow lacking in intelligence both spiritually and intellectually. While that may be true in my case, the problem of retention remains. I therefore make the following proposals. 1) assume that there is information is available from over a century of General Authority speeches and authorship in which they have explained the subject of race. 2) assume that when given a counter-intuitive answer to an investigative question that volumes upon volumes exist at the click of a button or key. 3) the present General Authority should pray on expunging all such matters from the Book of Mormon, Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. Race is no outward indication of spirituality or lack thereof so "why IS it there"? 4) consider that White and Black are not metaphors but paradigms. "White", whether descriptive of light or pigment, two, totally opposite sciences. 5) after General Authority has prayed on it and has direction from Heavenly Father then unashamedly state in no uncertain terms the outcome. 6) realize that opinions on what should ne and what this or that means is futile. The only entity that van command understanding is Heavenly Father. I was asked why the retention rates among blacks and other minorities is so dismal. When I asked the same questions I had posed to you, some were ignored and others were spun to semantics. Another symbolic move was patronization. The insinuation was that because I hadn’t been an LDS for many years and was “only a mere investigator” that I was somehow lacking in intelligence both spiritually and intellectually.

While that may be true in my case, the problem of retention remains. I therefore make the following proposals.

1) assume that there is information is available from over a century of General Authority speeches and authorship in which they have explained the subject of race.

2) assume that when given a counter-intuitive answer to an investigative question that volumes upon volumes exist at the click of a button or key.

3) the present General Authority should pray on expunging all such matters from the Book of Mormon, Covenants, and Pearl
of Great Price. Race is no outward indication of spirituality or lack thereof so “why IS it there”?

4) consider that White and Black are not metaphors but paradigms. “White”, whether descriptive of light or pigment, two, totally opposite sciences.

5) after General Authority has prayed on it and has direction from Heavenly Father then unashamedly state in no uncertain terms the outcome.

6) realize that opinions on what should ne and what this or that means is futile. The only entity that van command understanding is Heavenly Father.

]]> By: Kevin Barney http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/12-questions-for-marvin-perkins-part-one/#comment-292366 Kevin Barney Mon, 25 May 2009 03:12:00 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8319#comment-292366 I strongly agree with Marvin's point in no. 6. See my post on missionary malpractice per se: http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/14/missionary-malpractice-per-se/ I strongly agree with Marvin’s point in no. 6. See my post on missionary malpractice per se:

http://bycommonconsent.com/2006/10/14/missionary-malpractice-per-se/

]]> By: Marvin http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/12-questions-for-marvin-perkins-part-one/#comment-292278 Marvin Sat, 23 May 2009 05:12:08 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8319#comment-292278 Hi Jule, Thank you for sharing your experience and posing this question. We cover this thoroughly in the Blacks in the Scriptures DVD series. The passage you're first mentioned is 2 Nephi 5:21. As an investigator, I had to put the Book of Mormon down when I read that too. It's a natural reaction, as is the call to change all the scripture passages that give the same apparent message. But hopefully you'll see that this is not necessary. Read 1 Samuel 16:7. In this passage the Lord is teaching the prophet Samuel something he obviously hasn't learned yet, and is also teaching us in the process, not to judge one's worthiness by the outward appearance. So if early in biblical history that Lord is teaching this principle, would it make any sense at all that the Lord would later (or earlier for that matter) change someone's skin color, encouraging man to look on the outward appearance to judge one's worthiness? No. That would totally contradict what the Lord was teaching us through teaching His prophet. So with this in mind, you know that any scriptural passage that made you think that the Lord was changing one’s skin color, has deeper meaning that we need to search to understand. There never was skin color changing by God, just misunderstanding of scripture by man. The Lord does not contradict Himself. See D&C 3:2-3. Let's go to 2 Nephi 5:21. “ …the Lord God did cause a dskin of eblackness to come upon them.” First, who do we believe the people being spoken of are? The Lamanites, who we’ve taught are the American Indians. Do they have black skin? No. So that’s the first thing that should cause readers to say “there’s more to this passage that meets the eye.” Second, take a look at the new footnote placed on the word “skin” which takes you to 2 Nephi 30:6. Ask yourself why are they putting a footnote on this word in the new 1981 edition of the scriptures, and what significance and understanding related to “skin” is contained in the passage they’re directing us to? As you read 2 Nephi 30:6 take note of a few significant things. 1. The passage is speaking of scales of darkness over the eyes. 2. The word “white” and delightsome (pre 1981 edition) has been changed to “pure” and delightsome (1981 edition) 3. A new footnote “b” has been place onto the word “scales” which when you follow clearly tell readers that what’s being spoken of is “darkness spiritual, spiritual blindness” So the Lamanites never had a skin color change. Every passage that you see that makes you believe they did will have new footnotes leading you back to what I call our 3 favorites on this topic. 2 Nephi 5:21, 2 Nephi 30:6 and Jacob 3:8. For example, see 3 Nephi 2:15 and follow the new footnote for the word “white”. The Lord does not refer to His children by their skin color. With a careful study of all of the mentions of black and white as it refers to man, we learn that black is metaphoric for wickedness, spiritual darkness etc,. as white is for pure or righteous and has nothing to do with literal skin color. This includes to passage with the command to Enoch you referred to. For another really clear example of this, compare 2 Nephi 26:33 with Alma 11:44 where the literal meaning of the words are used in place of the metaphoric. When doing scripture study, follow all of your footnotes and understand what all of the books of scripture say. One cannot get a complete picture from one or two passages. Let me know if you have any other questions on this. Marvin Hi Jule,

Thank you for sharing your experience and posing this question. We cover this thoroughly in the Blacks in the Scriptures DVD series.

The passage you’re first mentioned is 2 Nephi 5:21. As an investigator, I had to put the Book of Mormon down when I read that too. It’s a natural reaction, as is the call to change all the scripture passages that give the same apparent message. But hopefully you’ll see that this is not necessary.

Read 1 Samuel 16:7. In this passage the Lord is teaching the prophet Samuel something he obviously hasn’t learned yet, and is also teaching us in the process, not to judge one’s worthiness by the outward appearance. So if early in biblical history that Lord is teaching this principle, would it make any sense at all that the Lord would later (or earlier for that matter) change someone’s skin color, encouraging man to look on the outward appearance to judge one’s worthiness? No. That would totally contradict what the Lord was teaching us through teaching His prophet.

So with this in mind, you know that any scriptural passage that made you think that the Lord was changing one’s skin color, has deeper meaning that we need to search to understand. There never was skin color changing by God, just misunderstanding of scripture by man. The Lord does not contradict Himself. See D&C 3:2-3.

Let’s go to 2 Nephi 5:21. “ …the Lord God did cause a dskin of eblackness to come upon them.”

First, who do we believe the people being spoken of are? The Lamanites, who we’ve taught are the American Indians. Do they have black skin? No. So that’s the first thing that should cause readers to say “there’s more to this passage that meets the eye.”

Second, take a look at the new footnote placed on the word “skin” which takes you to 2 Nephi 30:6. Ask yourself why are they putting a footnote on this word in the new 1981 edition of the scriptures, and what significance and understanding related to “skin” is contained in the passage they’re directing us to? As you read 2 Nephi 30:6 take note of a few significant things.

1. The passage is speaking of scales of darkness over the eyes.
2. The word “white” and delightsome (pre 1981 edition) has been changed to “pure” and delightsome (1981 edition)
3. A new footnote “b” has been place onto the word “scales” which when you follow clearly tell readers that what’s being spoken of is “darkness spiritual, spiritual blindness”

So the Lamanites never had a skin color change. Every passage that you see that makes you believe they did will have new footnotes leading you back to what I call our 3 favorites on this topic. 2 Nephi 5:21, 2 Nephi 30:6 and Jacob 3:8.

For example, see 3 Nephi 2:15 and follow the new footnote for the word “white”.

The Lord does not refer to His children by their skin color. With a careful study of all of the mentions of black and white as it refers to man, we learn that black is metaphoric for wickedness, spiritual darkness etc,. as white is for pure or righteous and has nothing to do with literal skin color. This includes to passage with the command to Enoch you referred to.

For another really clear example of this, compare 2 Nephi 26:33 with Alma 11:44 where the literal meaning of the words are used in place of the metaphoric. When doing scripture study, follow all of your footnotes and understand what all of the books of scripture say. One cannot get a complete picture from one or two passages.

Let me know if you have any other questions on this.

Marvin

]]> By: Dee Baker http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/12-questions-for-marvin-perkins-part-one/#comment-292273 Dee Baker Sat, 23 May 2009 02:50:18 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8319#comment-292273 As always Mr. Perkins demonstrates the essence of a Latter Day Saint. He has a level concept of the scriptures and an untiring assistance to help new converts to stay focus. Thank you once again for being a friend to me at Cerritos 1st. Dee As always Mr. Perkins demonstrates the essence of a Latter Day Saint. He has a level concept of the scriptures and an untiring assistance to help new converts to stay focus. Thank you once again for being a friend to me at Cerritos 1st.

Dee

]]> By: Marvin http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/12-questions-for-marvin-perkins-part-one/#comment-292260 Marvin Fri, 22 May 2009 23:57:09 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8319#comment-292260 Hi Jule, I'm going to have a date with my wife, then I'll come back and answer this question. Please grab your scriptures and a highlighter. I think you'll see these passages in a new light. Marvin Hi Jule,

I’m going to have a date with my wife, then I’ll come back and answer this question. Please grab your scriptures and a highlighter. I think you’ll see these passages in a new light.

Marvin

]]> By: Marvin http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/12-questions-for-marvin-perkins-part-one/#comment-292258 Marvin Fri, 22 May 2009 22:41:23 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8319#comment-292258 Jamie, thank you very much for voicing this concern, which is one that other readers may have, but may not write to express it. You've now given the opportunity for us to help those as we attempt to help you. First, the pattern by which we obtain truth as taught by the prophets and the scriptures in order to obtain a perfect knowledge of all thins, is to study the scriptures, ponder and pray about what we are taught. If each would do this, no prophet could ever lead the church astray. Also, about 23 minutes into the following podcast, a caller ask that same question and we give more detail. It may help you to feel better about this, which is truly a difficult reconciliation. Blacks and the LDS Priesthood - April 6, 2009 http://bits-aaop.byoaudio.com/files/media/bd671d76-b168-5d9f-d9cd-692c59479826.mp3 Marvin Jamie, thank you very much for voicing this concern, which is one that other readers may have, but may not write to express it. You’ve now given the opportunity for us to help those as we attempt to help you.

First, the pattern by which we obtain truth as taught by the prophets and the scriptures in order to obtain a perfect knowledge of all thins, is to study the scriptures, ponder and pray about what we are taught. If each would do this, no prophet could ever lead the church astray.

Also, about 23 minutes into the following podcast, a caller ask that same question and we give more detail. It may help you to feel better about this, which is truly a difficult reconciliation.

Blacks and the LDS Priesthood – April 6, 2009
http://bits-aaop.byoaudio.com/files/media/bd671d76-b168-5d9f-d9cd-692c59479826.mp3

Marvin

]]> By: Jule Teasley http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/05/12-questions-for-marvin-perkins-part-one/#comment-292255 Jule Teasley Fri, 22 May 2009 21:57:28 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=8319#comment-292255 I joined the Church (LDS) in 2006. We were challenged to read the BOM, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price by Christmas which was 6 months away. On my very first meeting with my Missionaries and ther Guides I spotted a synopsis of the chapter that said that a sore cursing came upon the Laminites which caused them to be cursed with a SKIN of Blakness. The passage also stated that while at first they were "White and delightsome". The reason, I was later to read, that Gods people were White and that God wanted this disparity because God wanted immediate recognition so that the "distasteful" Black skin would visually make them undesirable to "God's People". I have repeatedly been told that the Blackness was metaphorical and it really meant attitude. In my reading assignment I didn't consider it so much a metaphor as a paradigm. It further states that the Lamanites (as proof of redemption) to the Nephites that their (Lamanites) skin would turn/return to White. Another passage bothered me (among many) that when God commanded Enoch to "Gather all the peoples of the earth" to reorganize the church. He was to specifically exclude "the Sons of Cain, for they are Black and had not place among them". My problem is this: The deciding factors of Christianity are that one accept Jesus the Christ as the Messiah and that one must live one's life by the Beattitudes (Matthew 5:, 6:, and 7) nothing is mentioned about Skin tone having any qualitative significance. Having said the above; my personal view is that "exterior" conditions have no place in God's design for it, a other factors cannot be used for identification of the condition of one's relationship with the Almighty. It is also my belief that these references should be stricken from our scriptures. I await your response I joined the Church (LDS) in 2006. We were challenged to read the BOM, D&C, and Pearl of Great Price by Christmas which was 6 months away. On my very first meeting with my Missionaries and ther Guides I spotted a synopsis of the chapter that said that a sore cursing came upon the Laminites which caused them to be cursed with a SKIN of Blakness. The passage also stated that while at first they were “White and delightsome”. The reason, I was later to read, that Gods people were White and that God wanted this disparity because God wanted immediate recognition so that the “distasteful” Black skin would visually make them undesirable to “God’s People”.

I have repeatedly been told that the Blackness was metaphorical and it really meant attitude. In my reading assignment I didn’t consider it so much a metaphor as a paradigm. It further states that the Lamanites (as proof of redemption) to the Nephites that their (Lamanites) skin would turn/return to White.

Another passage bothered me (among many) that when God commanded Enoch to “Gather all the peoples of the earth” to reorganize the church. He was to specifically exclude “the Sons of Cain, for they are Black and had not place among them”.

My problem is this: The deciding factors of Christianity are that one accept Jesus the Christ as the Messiah and that one must live one’s life by the Beattitudes (Matthew 5:, 6:, and 7) nothing is mentioned about Skin tone having any qualitative significance. Having said the above; my personal view is that “exterior” conditions have no place in God’s design for it, a other factors cannot be used for identification of the condition of one’s relationship with the Almighty. It is also my belief that these references should be stricken from our scriptures.

I await your response

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