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	<title>Comments on: The Double-Minded Essence of Mormonism</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/04/the-double-minded-essence-of-moromonism/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/04/the-double-minded-essence-of-moromonism/#comment-289032</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=7651#comment-289032</guid>
		<description>By double-minded I meant merely the Mormon desire to both withdraw from the world to live as an isolated and peculiar people and the simultaneous desire to reach out to, embrace, and be embraced by the larger world.  My point is that both elements are strongly present in 19th century Mormonism, while the second element is essentially absent from modern polygamist groups like the FLDS.  In this sense, they are emphatically NOT simply a continuation of 19th century Mormonism into the present.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By double-minded I meant merely the Mormon desire to both withdraw from the world to live as an isolated and peculiar people and the simultaneous desire to reach out to, embrace, and be embraced by the larger world.  My point is that both elements are strongly present in 19th century Mormonism, while the second element is essentially absent from modern polygamist groups like the FLDS.  In this sense, they are emphatically NOT simply a continuation of 19th century Mormonism into the present.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/04/the-double-minded-essence-of-moromonism/#comment-289029</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=7651#comment-289029</guid>
		<description>I became a little lost in this thought-provoking essay.
1) The &quot;double-minded essence&quot; is adherence to an element of sympathy toward the doctrine/practice of polygamy while publicly denouncing it and standing as far away from it as possible. Example: GQ Cannon defending polygamy while befriending an author of the infamous Edmunds/Tucker Act.
2) The love/hate relationship to polygamy is not a window to the essence of 19th century Mormonism, the essence is the world-wide effort to share the message of the restoration. And, further, this essence is not double-minded.

Incidentally, I see the Cannon/Edmunds relationship as very similar to today&#039;s Hatch/Kennedy association.  I don&#039;t see either as an example of double-mindedness.  I can enjoy association with co-workers of different faiths and at the same time disagree on some doctrines while agreeing on some.  That&#039;s not double-mindedness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I became a little lost in this thought-provoking essay.<br />
1) The &#8220;double-minded essence&#8221; is adherence to an element of sympathy toward the doctrine/practice of polygamy while publicly denouncing it and standing as far away from it as possible. Example: GQ Cannon defending polygamy while befriending an author of the infamous Edmunds/Tucker Act.<br />
2) The love/hate relationship to polygamy is not a window to the essence of 19th century Mormonism, the essence is the world-wide effort to share the message of the restoration. And, further, this essence is not double-minded.</p>
<p>Incidentally, I see the Cannon/Edmunds relationship as very similar to today&#8217;s Hatch/Kennedy association.  I don&#8217;t see either as an example of double-mindedness.  I can enjoy association with co-workers of different faiths and at the same time disagree on some doctrines while agreeing on some.  That&#8217;s not double-mindedness.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/04/the-double-minded-essence-of-moromonism/#comment-288837</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 02:49:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=7651#comment-288837</guid>
		<description>RW: One historical possiblity, I suppose might be to look at the Community of Christ (the RLDS Church that was) as an example of the road to complete openess.  This is a simplification, of course, of what has happened in the RLDS tradition, but they certainly don&#039;t seem to be trading in any way shape or form that I can see on a &quot;flee to Zion&quot; rhetoric. 

In terms of a positive institutional feature, I think that Mauss tries to make out a case in his angle and the beehive book that in order for the church to thrive it must maintain an optimal level of tension with surrounding society, not too much but also not none at all.  Mauss, however, thinks that while this is ultimately healthy for the community it will always lead to a certain amount of personal pain and frustration for some because there will always be those who gravitate to either pole and regard the Church as an institution as either selling out or engaged in closed minded xenophobia.  There is also an economic literature that suggests that what you want to do is create costly signalling mechanisms to avoid free riding, but not set the signalling costs so high that you deter any entrants at all.  I am thinking here of work by folks like Rodney Stark and Laurence R. Iannaccone.  Of course, the religious studies types don&#039;t like this sort of theorizing, in part because the modeling necessarily flattens out one&#039;s descriptions of religious communities.  (I also think that the vast majority of the religious studies types may just be pinkos who reflexively and unreflectively dismiss economics as per se evil and reactionary [note to the humor challenged: this last statment is a joke])

Certainly Givens offers up a kind of agonistic view of Mormon thought as a struggle between competing impulses and obviously I am sympathetic to that.  His approach suggests that the tension is not simply institutionally useful, but also culturally productive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RW: One historical possiblity, I suppose might be to look at the Community of Christ (the RLDS Church that was) as an example of the road to complete openess.  This is a simplification, of course, of what has happened in the RLDS tradition, but they certainly don&#8217;t seem to be trading in any way shape or form that I can see on a &#8220;flee to Zion&#8221; rhetoric. </p>
<p>In terms of a positive institutional feature, I think that Mauss tries to make out a case in his angle and the beehive book that in order for the church to thrive it must maintain an optimal level of tension with surrounding society, not too much but also not none at all.  Mauss, however, thinks that while this is ultimately healthy for the community it will always lead to a certain amount of personal pain and frustration for some because there will always be those who gravitate to either pole and regard the Church as an institution as either selling out or engaged in closed minded xenophobia.  There is also an economic literature that suggests that what you want to do is create costly signalling mechanisms to avoid free riding, but not set the signalling costs so high that you deter any entrants at all.  I am thinking here of work by folks like Rodney Stark and Laurence R. Iannaccone.  Of course, the religious studies types don&#8217;t like this sort of theorizing, in part because the modeling necessarily flattens out one&#8217;s descriptions of religious communities.  (I also think that the vast majority of the religious studies types may just be pinkos who reflexively and unreflectively dismiss economics as per se evil and reactionary [note to the humor challenged: this last statment is a joke])</p>
<p>Certainly Givens offers up a kind of agonistic view of Mormon thought as a struggle between competing impulses and obviously I am sympathetic to that.  His approach suggests that the tension is not simply institutionally useful, but also culturally productive.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/04/the-double-minded-essence-of-moromonism/#comment-288813</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 18:21:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=7651#comment-288813</guid>
		<description>Yes, Nate, a great post as always. The structure of your argument is an elegant sort of thesis-antithesis-synthesis: Mormonism is x, Mormonism is also not-x, and the contradiction is ultimately a good thing. Call it the Givens hypothesis.  Do you think double-mindedness of the sort you describe is necessarily a positive institutional feature? How does one distinguish between a fertile double-mindedness and simple confusion in institutional aims? Certainly the mainstream church has fared better, institutionally, than the FLDS. But we don&#039;t have a good counterexample for the other path---one of complete openness. Who knows if that might have been institutionally even more successful? (setting aside issues of revelation and doctrinal correctness, and thinking purely instrumentally, of course)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Nate, a great post as always. The structure of your argument is an elegant sort of thesis-antithesis-synthesis: Mormonism is x, Mormonism is also not-x, and the contradiction is ultimately a good thing. Call it the Givens hypothesis.  Do you think double-mindedness of the sort you describe is necessarily a positive institutional feature? How does one distinguish between a fertile double-mindedness and simple confusion in institutional aims? Certainly the mainstream church has fared better, institutionally, than the FLDS. But we don&#8217;t have a good counterexample for the other path&#8212;one of complete openness. Who knows if that might have been institutionally even more successful? (setting aside issues of revelation and doctrinal correctness, and thinking purely instrumentally, of course)</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/04/the-double-minded-essence-of-moromonism/#comment-288796</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 15:08:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=7651#comment-288796</guid>
		<description>Great post.  And &quot;apostate Zion&quot; is a great phrase.  It captures very well what&#039;s going on in all these compound and commune and retreat-from-the-world groups, not just the FLDS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post.  And &#8220;apostate Zion&#8221; is a great phrase.  It captures very well what&#8217;s going on in all these compound and commune and retreat-from-the-world groups, not just the FLDS.</p>
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		<title>By: Raymond Takashi Swenson</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/04/the-double-minded-essence-of-moromonism/#comment-288768</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond Takashi Swenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 00:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=7651#comment-288768</guid>
		<description>Hugh Nibley reported that his mission president in Germany told him to warn the Germans that the voice of the misisonaries would be followed by the voice of fire from heaven, something he remembered when he saw the cities he had proselyted in reduced to rubble during World War II.  &quot;Thrash&quot; is appropriate.

Thanks, Nate, for pointing out the essential nature of Mormonism as one that is focused on inviting the world to &quot;come and see&quot; the restored gospel in action, bringing themselves and their talents and cultures into the Church.  To accomplish that mission means a willingness to embrace the prople of the world where they are, to love them as they are, while offering them more.  Some critics of the Church think that our missionaries are going out to condemn the world, but that is not a productive means of gaining converts.  The criticism that Mormons are insular and even racist is belied by the Church&#039;s constant outreach to many nations and ethnicities, from its earliest years.  One should not forget that, in the wake of the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812, Britain was not universally admired among Americans or regarded with the warm relations the two nations have enjoyed since World War I.  Britain was a real foreign nation in those days.  Church missions to Polynesia starting in 1844 and to Japan in 1901 reflected the Mormon belief in the worthiness of those other cultures to hear the gospel, a belief not widely shared  by all Americans, as demonstrated by the 1923 passage of a law barring new Japanese immigration, which provoked the Japanese so much that the LDS misison had to be closed in 1924.  

In this context, the policy denying priesthood ordination to persons of African descent was an anomaly, and the ending of that policy has led to another surge of missionary outreach to those on the outside of Mormon culture.  

When we believe that every human is a literal child of God, who once knew the truth of the plan of salvation as well as any Mormon, and understand that Christ loves them as much as any one of us, we realize that even those who are our literal enemies now were once our brothers and may become so again in the fulness of time.  We are not fulfilling our assignment as the Father&#039;s true church on earth if we are not reaching out to all our family.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hugh Nibley reported that his mission president in Germany told him to warn the Germans that the voice of the misisonaries would be followed by the voice of fire from heaven, something he remembered when he saw the cities he had proselyted in reduced to rubble during World War II.  &#8220;Thrash&#8221; is appropriate.</p>
<p>Thanks, Nate, for pointing out the essential nature of Mormonism as one that is focused on inviting the world to &#8220;come and see&#8221; the restored gospel in action, bringing themselves and their talents and cultures into the Church.  To accomplish that mission means a willingness to embrace the prople of the world where they are, to love them as they are, while offering them more.  Some critics of the Church think that our missionaries are going out to condemn the world, but that is not a productive means of gaining converts.  The criticism that Mormons are insular and even racist is belied by the Church&#8217;s constant outreach to many nations and ethnicities, from its earliest years.  One should not forget that, in the wake of the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812, Britain was not universally admired among Americans or regarded with the warm relations the two nations have enjoyed since World War I.  Britain was a real foreign nation in those days.  Church missions to Polynesia starting in 1844 and to Japan in 1901 reflected the Mormon belief in the worthiness of those other cultures to hear the gospel, a belief not widely shared  by all Americans, as demonstrated by the 1923 passage of a law barring new Japanese immigration, which provoked the Japanese so much that the LDS misison had to be closed in 1924.  </p>
<p>In this context, the policy denying priesthood ordination to persons of African descent was an anomaly, and the ending of that policy has led to another surge of missionary outreach to those on the outside of Mormon culture.  </p>
<p>When we believe that every human is a literal child of God, who once knew the truth of the plan of salvation as well as any Mormon, and understand that Christ loves them as much as any one of us, we realize that even those who are our literal enemies now were once our brothers and may become so again in the fulness of time.  We are not fulfilling our assignment as the Father&#8217;s true church on earth if we are not reaching out to all our family.</p>
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		<title>By: Kay T.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/04/the-double-minded-essence-of-moromonism/#comment-288758</link>
		<dc:creator>Kay T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 16:55:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=7651#comment-288758</guid>
		<description>Jim and Nate: You might find it interesting that the first definition of &quot;thrash&quot; in my dictionary is &quot;to separate the seeds . . . from the husks and straw by beating: thresh.&quot; But &quot;thrashing the nations&quot; has an interesting double meaning, which fits in nicely with Nate&#039;s fine post. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim and Nate: You might find it interesting that the first definition of &#8220;thrash&#8221; in my dictionary is &#8220;to separate the seeds . . . from the husks and straw by beating: thresh.&#8221; But &#8220;thrashing the nations&#8221; has an interesting double meaning, which fits in nicely with Nate&#8217;s fine post. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/04/the-double-minded-essence-of-moromonism/#comment-288747</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 13:37:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=7651#comment-288747</guid>
		<description>Dan: The interesting thing to me is that there is a very real sense in which the FLDS are NOT stuck in the nineteenth century.  Their religion and their sense of Zion is ultimately forged, I think, not out of the nineteenth century experience of Mormonism but out of the twentieth-century experience of polygamist fundamentalism.  Nineteenth-century polygamy was different in part precisely because it occured on the far side of the Raid of the 1880s and the transition to monogamy from 1890 to 1904.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan: The interesting thing to me is that there is a very real sense in which the FLDS are NOT stuck in the nineteenth century.  Their religion and their sense of Zion is ultimately forged, I think, not out of the nineteenth century experience of Mormonism but out of the twentieth-century experience of polygamist fundamentalism.  Nineteenth-century polygamy was different in part precisely because it occured on the far side of the Raid of the 1880s and the transition to monogamy from 1890 to 1904.</p>
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		<title>By: HeidiAnn</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/04/the-double-minded-essence-of-moromonism/#comment-288745</link>
		<dc:creator>HeidiAnn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 13:25:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=7651#comment-288745</guid>
		<description>Great post!  Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post!  Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/04/the-double-minded-essence-of-moromonism/#comment-288744</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:43:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=7651#comment-288744</guid>
		<description>I would not have joined the church in the 1800s (which is probably why the Lord saw fit to ensure I was not born in the 1800s). I would have joined at the start, when Joseph Smith led, but a lot of the stuff from the latter half of the 1800s church history seems so foreign to me. Heck I still have trouble with the more hardcore Skousen types today, but I am very glad they are a minority right now. I don&#039;t feel to care to learn much about that era, either, and it has to do mostly with polygamy, and the dogged defense church leaders had of this practice. I&#039;m glad that people like GQC tried to reach out. I think they realized the stunted growth the church would have had if they hadn&#039;t reached out. Or maybe they didn&#039;t realize it, but just felt the need to reach out and not continue to be perceived as whacked. The FLDS seem to want to be perceived as backwards, as stuck in the 1800s. That&#039;s their perrogative, but of course it means they will never progress and increase.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would not have joined the church in the 1800s (which is probably why the Lord saw fit to ensure I was not born in the 1800s). I would have joined at the start, when Joseph Smith led, but a lot of the stuff from the latter half of the 1800s church history seems so foreign to me. Heck I still have trouble with the more hardcore Skousen types today, but I am very glad they are a minority right now. I don&#8217;t feel to care to learn much about that era, either, and it has to do mostly with polygamy, and the dogged defense church leaders had of this practice. I&#8217;m glad that people like GQC tried to reach out. I think they realized the stunted growth the church would have had if they hadn&#8217;t reached out. Or maybe they didn&#8217;t realize it, but just felt the need to reach out and not continue to be perceived as whacked. The FLDS seem to want to be perceived as backwards, as stuck in the 1800s. That&#8217;s their perrogative, but of course it means they will never progress and increase.</p>
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