Our kids’ schooling
Wilfried Decoo, April 8, 2009
“The AP reported U.S. kids are scoring in the bottom half of the pack when measured against kids from other nations.” The quote comes from this article, giving excerpts of Jack Cafferty’s book Now or Never. This information is not new. For many years, various reports have confirmed the problem. Compared to children in similar developed nations, American children do not seem to achieve the same results.
What could I say from my experience? Background: I was raised in Belgium and for three decades professionally involved in teacher training there, but now mainly living and working in the U.S. I was also able to follow my daughter, first during her elementary school years in Belgium, and next during her high school years in the U.S. My experience is thus both professional, but limited in scope, and anecdotal.
Frankly, I think the U.S. school my daughter went to did a great job. With only a rare exception, teachers were very diligent and highly competent. The curriculum was, for some courses, somewhat lighter than in a demanding European high school, but AP courses certainly matched or required even more. In terms of general comparisons between the U.S. and Europe a few things are certain: the children here and there have, on average, the same intelligence and potential; there are better and not so good schools everywhere; there are various tracks to match abilities; the social layers play their effect in each country. Still, overall, U.S. kids do not seem to score as well. And annual “foreign import” of expertise is said to be necessary to help keep the U.S. “advanced”. Why?
The main difference I can see with the European situation is the parents. It seems European parents pay, on average, more attention to language development, long table conversations (the sacred dinner time!), educational growth, books and culture, curriculum and courses selection, control of daily schoolwork at home, etc. I must admit that I would never have reached what I am without my parents’ constant watch and stimulation when it came to school, homework, and other educational opportunities. The same was true for nearly all my friends in Belgian schools. Those who failed or achieved sub-par were usually those without such parental watch.
According to Jack Cafferty:
Obama said it simply in his final debate with John McCain: Unplug those video games, mom and dad, put other distractions away, and get down to work with your kids (…) We’ve witnessed the decline of the importance of schooling in far too many homes. Learning must be a top priority for parents. But in today’s brutal economy, breadwinners are forced to work two jobs, two parents sweat to keep their jobs and homes, and the kids get left unsupervised. They go online, text their pals, stare at the tube (or YouTube), and play video games.
I agree, except on one point: blaming the two jobs that parents hold does not seem correct. From my European experience, most parents have two jobs, but they still pay uttermost attention to the schoolwork of their children. Evenings and weekends, even with only one parent home, still give the time for proper interaction and control. Of course, in Europe the social cleavage also remains: the more education the parents have, the more they watch the education of their children. Still, even on lower social levels, the attention given to schooling seems more ingrained in Europe than in the American environment, insofar as I have been able to observe.
From a Mormon viewpoint, however, parents sometimes face challenges. Is it possible that the demands put on themselves and on their children in terms of church services and activities can be such that other things, like schooling, start to suffer? In Europe a number of Mormon parents certainly struggle with conflicts in this area. Given the demands of homework for school (several hours a day, including weekends), given the strains for tests and exams, tensions arise when the pressure to attend Church activities infringes on time needed for schooling. Consider also the extra time for transportation to activities and events in areas with few members.
The topic for discussion is thus twofold. Is American education suffering in particular because of insufficient parental involvement and control of their children? Could some of our own Mormon requirements add to the problem, both in the U.S. and abroad?
Other Posts by Wilfried Decoo
Categories: Mormon Life, Parenting
Excellent points. And I was very glad last fall when Obama laid much of the troubles in the education of our children at the feet of parents. My wife is a principal in New York City and we talk a lot about schooling. I ask her on occasion which kids in her school have failing or close to failing grades. They are usually African American, and ALL OF THEM do not have fathers at home, or have some family conflict. My parents divorced when I was twelve, and most of my junior and high school grading was subpar (I finished high school with a 2.7 GPA, though I finished my Masters in 2005 with a 3.5 GPA).
I’ve sort of answered your question, but yes, I believe there is a direct correlation between parental involvement and a child’s education.
To your second question, yes, Mormon involvement can add to the problem. Local Church leaders need to keep in mind how much a particular family has on its plate to raise their children before considering certain callings.
Well, that penultimate paragraph took an odd turn, one that is counter to positive correlations between LDS religiosity and educational attainment, which correlations I’ll let someone else pull up from Heaton or some such source.
There are some major differences between US and European schools that these discussions seem to ignore. In the US, we test ALL our kids, even those who attend half of all school days and those who are basically forced to attend the last 8 years, and those who have been speaking English for only 4 months, and those with ADD–they ALL take High School math and they ALL get tested.
Whereas in many European (and Asian and African) schools, these reluctant mathematicians would have been tracked out into vocational schools or left school with their O-levels and called it good.
European education (generally) values mastery and American education (general) values exposure. So we dabble and they go deep. Our kids may take Art History and Calculus and AP Chemistry and British Literature their 12th grade year and then go on to college and study nursing. Europeans (generally) ask their kids to specialize earlier and therefore the only kids taking Calculus are the ones who will continue mathematical and science studies in university.
We are testing totally different populations.
I grew up in Utah in a community where excelling was not seen as a virtue, especially if you were seen to be working at it. Nevertheless, all of my friends finished college and got good jobs and have been pretty solid citizens. The difference, it seems to me, is that we had many adults lurging us on in addition to our parents: scoutmasters, Sunday School teachers, coaches etc. But more importantly, I think, we had few distractions other than MIA or perhaps a sports team. We had no electronic devices, no entertainment, we only saw a movie perhaps on a Saturday night. True, most of our mothers did not work, but even if they had, I think we all knew that not only our parents but the larger community expected us to be somewhat serious about education. It’s a different world out there today. I worry that my kids, even if they all get college degrees, will know a lot about technology but still not really be educated.
Thank you, Dan (#1) , for that echo from NY. Correlation between parental involvement and a child’s education is certainly undeniable.
Interesting point, John (#2) as to correlation between LDS religiosity and educational attainment. I presume there are many factors to be considered in such comparisons. I am not sure much research has been done in this area outside the U.S. On a worldwide scale the results might be different, also considering the characteristics of many in the convert population. Anyway, I raised the point as a question, not as a statement.
ESO (#3), I certainly agree on the problems of “which” populations are being compared. As far as I know (and been involved), the research on educational attainments for national and international comparisons takes into account many variables, sometimes including the ones you mention, sometimes not. I am well aware of the complexities of such evaluations (last year I published a book about national benchmark attainments, in Dutch). The overall picture, however, confirmed by multiple studies over many years, tends to confirm the general trend that attainments between countries differ, considering comparable groups.
Jon (#4), excellent point on changing times and challenges.
ESO: The exams used for the comparisons are given in the equivalent of grade 9, before most national systems have their GCSEs or equivalent. As a result, the populations are more equivalent than you portray here.However, those students are generally being prepared for exams that will allow them to proceed to the next level of studies, so in that respect the systems are focused quite differently.
To throw a spanner in the works: Finland achieves very high on those exams, usually in the top five on both maths and literacy. Finnish parents’ involvement in schools is quite limited: they don’t come to conferences, and they don’t do homework with their kids. They basically let the school get on with it.
Wilfried, I am especially interested in your response to ESO, who echos some of the things I have heard about European school practices.
I also wonder if the relative cultural diversity of the population is a factor here. With a large portion of the US population comprised of immigrants and sub-cultures that don’t always follow the norm, I have the perception that some of these sub-cultures value education significantly less than the culture as a whole.
Having said that, I do recognize that most European nations have large immigrant populations (but I’ve never looked to see if they are proportionally as large as what we have in the U.S.). When I was in Portugal during my mission, the lower class was made up heavily of the ‘retornados’ or “returned” — those who had come back to Portugal in 1974 after the country stopped fighting guerrillas and gave up its colonies to independence. There was also a racial element to this equation, since the ‘retornados’ in the lower class were largely black africans.
I’ve also read that similar situations are found in other European countries, notably France (Algerian immigrants, as well as those from many other former colonies) and German (Turkish immigrants).
I recently saw the French film Entre les murs (in English: The Class) that gave me the impression that the immigrants from French colonies often aren’t doing that well in school either.
Do you have a sense for how these groups fare in European school systems? Ae they a large enough proportion of the population to effect the overall test results used to compare countries?
Is ESO correct that they essentially get excluded from the data because they end up out of the system somehow?
Quick response to your question, Kent (got to run to a class): the immigrant population in Europe is included in educational attainment comparisons, and these children typically score lower. Just like in the U.S., this is a matter of much concern in European countries and various programs, on local and national level, try to remedy this problem. But, again, the parental factor is seen as one of the first causes of this situation. Therefore educating the parents is as much a concern.
Willfried–
I had no doubt that you were aware (although I have not read your book), but your piece did not mention it and many do not realize the extent of our different education models. Obviously, the difference in populations is going to affect they way it is taught and even what is taught, as mentioned before, focusing on exposure rather than mastery.
As for parental involvement–I think that is a no-brainer. The vast majority of Mormon kids of Mormon parents will have a higher emphasis on education, I think, than non-Mormon peers of similar backgrounds. My family has been Mormon for ages, and consequently my great-grandparents, grandparents, and parents all have at lease college educations. I think that is pretty rare to have had so many people attending college long before the GI bill.
The only tension I see is when people try to install an American (and largely Utah/Mormon corridor) social structure elsewhere. Thus, the Europeans, Asians, and Africans who are trying to succeed academically and yet have systems based on one specific terribly-high-stakes test that determines their future, being told that spending upwards of 10 hours a week in Church meetings (seminary, church, YW/YM, BYD, Super Saturday, etc etc) and the attendant traveling through their high school years can feel very demanding and even impossible.
To a lesser degree, perhaps, East Coast Mormons have the same issues: we are generally far from Church buildings and have few Mormon peers within our schools. When we can’t do a study group on Tuesday nights or do a group project on Sunday, our academic and church lives collide.
A few thoughts:
1. I don’t know that anybody has actually been able to control for the composition differences in a compelling way. What has been done to control for them tends to make the differences smaller. I’d be interested, Wilfried, if you could point to any quality research that actually tests the entire population.
2. Other countries appear to have a much stronger high school setup (perhaps due to the tracking), but then slack off at the higher education level. Students work hard to get into college, and so high school is when the gap between us and them is widest. Look after college and it is no longer clear there is a gap.
3. Wilfried describes people coming here as the U.S. having to import talent, but I think the more interesting point is the demand side — lots of people want to come to our universities. because we have the best system in the world.
4. It would be interesting to see from time-use surveys what, if any, differences there are between European and U.S. parents in time spent with kids generally and more specifically doing homework with them. But remember that the incentives are very different. In many countries, high school may reflect the time of peak effort for all involved. In the U.S., not so much. This is not, by the way, unrelated to the composition issues discussed above.
Another thought; as a friend of mine who studies education put it, we have a perfectly fine school system in general mingled with an inner city disaster of a school system. Hence the commonly heard refrain about how the school system is a wreck but “my school” is fine.
Frank wrote (11): “Hence the commonly heard refrain about how the school system is a wreck but “my school” is fine.”
Sounds a little like “Congress stinks, but my congressman (or Senator) is great.”
Indeed, but if anything I think it is even stronger in the case of one’s school.
I think it is much more consistent to say that Congress, as an institution, can be a failure while each person may be reasonably well liked, because Congress’ behavior is very much based on a group dynamic.
Schools on the other hand, not so much. The schools in Detroit are almost irrelevant to the quality of my schools, but Detroits’ congressman can have a real effect on the quality of “my” Congress.
Wilfried, my impression is that the U.S. tends to end up somewhere in the middle of the pack in these international comparisons, which is probably about what you’d expect from a large, diverse country with significant child poverty issues. (Then again, you’ve written a book on the topic and I haven’t.) Certainly we could do better, but a lot of it involves not the hard work of improving schools, or the harder work of changing parental attitudes, but the really really hard work of changing the way this country tolerates child poverty.
If we look just at the variable of parental involvement, as your post mostly does, I think that church activity is probably a large net positive, as most church activities promote the involvement of parents in their children’s lives. There are probably exceptions for the few people in a ward with a truly time-intensive calling. The big drain on parental involvement is not a few or a dozen hours spent at church, I suspect, but a work culture that views 60-80 hour weeks and few or no weeks off per year as admirable and expected for people in professional careers, rather than inefficient and unnecessary.
There is also the critical issue that many countries, Asian countries in particular, “teach the test.” This is not a trivial consideration; with countries constructing their entire curriculum around college entrance examinations, it should not be surprising that their students do better on standardized tests. No Child Left Behind has moved us closer to the test-centric model, but my discussions with educators has revealed a deep discontent with No Child–the very strong opinion is that it has increased the pressure on schools while having little positive impact on real education.
The simple fact is that innovation and growth in the American economy has continued even as American students have lagged on tests; but that would simply be because test-taking ability has little correlation with real-world success. As such, I consider our measuring ability to be limited at best–not so hopelessly flawed that it is worthless, but rather needing to be seen within a broader perspective.
ESO (#9), good remarks. The comparison between Mormons in the US and other countries could be an issue when you mention “The vast majority of Mormon kids of Mormon parents will have a higher emphasis on education”. Would be worth more research if that is valid outside the US. From my experience, many converts come from lower social classes, struggling with various social and economic problems. It really takes time to build a stronger basis.
As to “the Europeans, Asians, and Africans who are trying to succeed academically and yet have systems based on one specific terribly-high-stakes test that determines their future”, it all depends on the country. Belgium, e.g., does not have any national tests like they have in France or Holland. Moreover, such tests elsewehere are not always determiners for the future. But I would agree that, overall, the American educational system tends to postpone too early choices and is more remedial than in other countries. Too demanding systems, like often in some European countries, tend to eliminate children at a too early stage from some later possibilities.
Also the US has a relatively short school year. I read Outliers this week, which discussed summer regression, which studies show hits particularly hard for the disadvantaged population, and is not such an issue for our Asian and European counterparts who have an extra month or two of school per year.
Another factor to consider: In America, it didn’t used to be necessary to rise to the top early and get in a special school in order to live a happy, productive life. That’s changing as we’ve all decided we want to live like aristocrats.
I have nothing but anecdote to contribute, but what the heck. If blogging isn’t for conclusions based on anecdotes, what is?
We put our children in European schools twice, once for six months in Austria and once for a year in Belgium, native-language rather than English-language schools both times. We told them that we weren’t particularly concerned about grades, especially given that they were learning a new language. Taking a French class in an Austrian school when you are just learning German is challenging. We wanted them to learn the language, and we wanted them to have experiences with people from different backgrounds than theirs.
The differences in pedagogy were significant, making it hard sometimes to know what would be comparable in the States. But our overall impression was that there was much more variation among the students, especially at the gymnasium (high school, sort of) level than we had expected. My perception was that the differences were often correlated with class: students from working families were more often those who weren’t achieving as well, just as often seemed to be true at Provo High School. Parental involvement seemed also to be correlated with class, though I’m not sure I can trust my judgment about the degree of parental involvement of the parents of my children’s peers in European schools. I wasn’t involved enough to get a good picture, just a glimpse.
Though there were areas in which my children’s European friends were ahead of them–particularly in languages and to a lesser degree in math–in both Austria and Belgium we felt that our children had better science education than did the European students we met. So if I were to try to decide which group was better educated, I would call it a wash.
One other point of comparison: Teaching at a Belgian university led me to believe that American students can generally write better at the first year of college than can European students at the same level, though that difference disappears rapidly. On the other hand, European students at that level can usually respond to question and answer sessions and defend a thesis orally better than can American students. I’m not sure whether Americans catch up on that skill, which is not to say I think they don’t. I don’t know.
Frank (#10), thanks for your stimulating questions. For “quality research that actually tests the entire population”, it will in most research cases be based on sampling, except in the case of countries that have national tests. International comparisons pose indeed many challenges. I would refer to work of the American Educational Research Association, with their divisions on Measurement & Research Methodology and on Research, Evaluation, & Assessment in Schools. Next the Division of Education of the OESO.
As to the “U.S. having to import talent”, you are right to point to the aspect that “lots of people want to come to our universities”. At the same time, the US needs them.
Next, many of these remain in the U.S. as universities and companies offer them jobs. However, the trend is nowadays that more and more return to their home countries, which is a source of concern for the U.S.
My kids go to a “bad” school in a “bad” city school district, but I’ve been happy with their experience so far (they are only in K and 1st right now, so I can’t judge the higher grades). It seems that what we call the failure of our urban schools represents illnesses of the urban family and urban society in general. We have high dropout rates, high rates of drug use, violence, teen pregnancy, delinquency, etc. and we think we can fix it by improving schools. That’s rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. We expect too much of our schools when we call them a wreck for failing to replace the irreplaceable.
We’ll solve the inner city education problem when we solve the inner city poverty, crime, drug, teen pregnancy, and absent father problems. It’d be nice to believe that we could make the schools so awesome that they could overcome all those other problems, but that’s a lot to ask of one institution. It’s probably too much to ask of government at all. Government can be part of the solution, but not all of it.
Almost a third of doctoral degrees in the sciences and engineering go to citizens of foreign countries.
Are these positions that couldn’t be filled by Americans or are Americans just being outcompeted? I know my science department could fill every position with Americans if it wanted to. But I have no idea if that would diminish the overall quality of our students and faculty.
Trying to catch up with comments…
Jonathan (#14) I so agree with your comment on the aspect of child poverty and its impact on education. Educational reform should address that as a core issue. Our Church does already do a lot on the level of young adults with PEF, but the educational needs of younger children in the world are still immense.
As to “most church activities promote the involvement of parents in their children’s lives”, that is true too, but prehaps we can do better on the aspect of schooling. Viewed from my decades of experience in the mission field, I can’t remember a single lesson, on any level, where parents got concrete advice, adapted to the country’s situation, on how to stimulate their children as to schooling. It’s a price we pay for correlation I’m afraid. It requires initiative from local leaders to tackle such needs, but if local leaders have insufficient backgrounds themselves… Anecdotal: when I entered the church first, years ago at age 17, the local priesthood leader, a workman who disliked any “schooled” persons, told me the church forbids college studies. I’m afraid such attitudes may still exist in faraway units.
As an engineering doctoral candidate with a husband bio sciences doctoral candidate, I have my doubts about how well we can extrapolate any significant information from the number of foreign versus domestic students in engineering/science at the post-undergraduate level and how it reflects on our school systems (sorry this might be somewhat tangential). I don’t think the US “needs” them as there are probably too many PhD students period, especially in the biological sciences, and they have increased to a great number while the number of faculty positions (and to a lesser extent) the number of industry positions has not increased leading to an enormous number of PhD’s working the infinite postdoc. If anything, I think we would benefit from less people overall and indeed shutting down some graduate programs at smaller universities to keep the supply and demand more inline. I have not found much difference in quality between foreign and domestic students. I think the difference (especially in engineering) in the numbers is that a PhD, in terms of a career trajectory, is often not needed and definitely not worth the time and money. Although some universities (especially some in India, etc) seem more rigorous, but most of the foreign students I meet have gone to the “MITs” of their respective countries, whereas I did not.
Not to turn this into a Finland thread (Finland, oh Finland…), but an addition to Norbert’s comment: in Finland, the media environment kids live in creates incentives and additional opportunities to learn certain skills. If you want to watch the cool new shows on TV in Finland, you need to 1) learn to read your own language so you can understand the subtitles and/or 2) learn to understand spoken foreign languages, particularly English. Even adult Americans balk at subtitled films, let alone television.
Some other impressions, which Norbert may be able to correct if I’m wrong: teacher education standards are higher, school facilities are more modern, school lunches are more nutritious (Thursday pea soup!), and opportunities for hands-on science learning are greater due to municipal planning that preserves viable green spaces. Oh, and kids get to swear in class. Although I’m not sure of the pedagogical importance of that last one.
Those darn Finnish socialists!
I wonder what part student culture might play in this. When I was in high school in the mid-70s, I felt enormous peer pressure not to appear to be too smart. In fact, I intentionally torpedoed my grades my junior year of high school to mask my innate brightness. Do similar cultural pressures exist in Europe?
Wilfried,
Your link saying that an increasing number of immigrants are returning home leads to somebody who links to the claim somewhere else, but their link is broken. Are more high skilled immigrants going home and should that worry me? I am not sure it does worry me even if true. It may suggest that returns to education are increasing in home countries to be closer to U.S. levels. Actually, that makes me happy.
As for the quote about how U.S. universities “need” the foreign students, well that is tricky business. All it really tells me is that the supply and demand curves are intersecting. Of course we’d have to reduce the size of those departments if we stopped being the place everyone wanted to come and so demand fell; that’s because we’d be changing the equilibrium. But high foreign enrollment doesn’t tell me that the U.S. secondary system is failing in any way. High foreign enrollment is perfectly consistent with either an excellent or a lousy secondary system.
I’d suggest that the U.S. has the premiere higher education setup and as such, our college students tend to enter the work force about on par with (or better than) other students. Our lower high school performace is probably attributable to our extremely heterogenous population without extensive tracking _or_ high stakes testing.
Wilfried, I wandered around the web sites you mentioned on international testing, but didn’t find any actual discussion of research designs or resluts. Let me know if you can think offhand where I might find that.
Some links to articles about the problems with international testing, here and here.
Tom (21), I agree. All three of my children have been educated in New York City schools, and your observations are spot on. Its too much to expect the schools to solve all these problems, even though they can many times do better than they are at the moment. There really are good schools and bad schools.
I also agree that parental involvement is crucial, and can often make up for a bad school. We have certainly used the very fortunate wealth of home-school resources available today in the US (and probably elsewhere also) to supplement our children’s education when we felt that the school or teacher wasn’t meeting our child’s needs. Our ward has even helped in this area, providing tutoring for LDS and non-LDS students alike as a support to parents. For single parents, or those with a relatively poor educational background, we hope this will help students in part get closer to the level they would have with two parents who are both involved in their education.
Research designs or WHAT?!
Tom (22) wrote: “Are these positions that couldn’t be filled by Americans or are Americans just being outcompeted? I know my science department could fill every position with Americans if it wanted to. But I have no idea if that would diminish the overall quality of our students and faculty.”
Why does it make a difference?
All those conservative economists I took classes from at both BYU and NYU’s business schools said it doesn’t. You hire the best person you can regardless of where they are from. Anything else is protectionist and reduces the economic good for both your country and where the foreign students are from.
And, as I’ve tried to point out in the past, morally, it comes from a very selfish attitude.
“Research designs or WHAT?!”
Resluts — like results but nastier.
Amanda (24) wrote: “If anything, I think we would benefit from less people overall and indeed shutting down some graduate programs at smaller universities to keep the supply and demand more inline.”
I don’t think this is really true, at least not in the sciences and engineering, and at least not when there is enough of an option to move countries. I’m quite certain that the worldwide demand for Ph.D.s in these fields is far from being satiated.
The world is better off if we educate people as much as possible when there is a demand somewhere in the world for their services. We just need to get the governments out of the way of their moving to where their services are best employed.
Thanks all, a lot to comment on… But we have been drifting away from the main point, i.e. parental impact on schooling.
So I’ll try to be brief on issues raised:
Frank, your link to this site is excellent and contains links to a number of known comparative international projects such as Progress in International Reading Literacy Study Study (PIRLS), Trends in Math and Science Study (TIMSS), and the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA). Of course, the challenges to compare correctly are numerous and are constantly being tackled by experts.
The discussion on the need for foreign experts (and entrepreneurs) in the U.S. is discussed on many sites. Look e.g. here and here and here.
It can even apply to rural areas in desperate need of a doctor - and foreign-born doctors with a US-diploma are willing to come. At the same time other countries try to reverse the brain drain.
Well, let’s try to focus on parental impact… I’m pretty sure those foreign-born experts owed it to their parents that…
I’m not sure you give this idea enough credit. It may not be the two jobs but rather the sheer amount of time that those jobs demand. Average American workers tend to work longer hours, take less vacation time, and fewer workday breaks than the average European workers.
Even if parents are at home for a few hours every evening, they may not really be available. They could be worn out, or engrossed in the second shift of basic daily home and self maintenance. I would guess that this more all encompassing work schedule eats up much of the time parents would or could spend policing their children’s schoolwork.
I’ve worked in education for the past 13 years – much of it spent working with poor performing schools and districts. The one constant for ALL of them is a lack of parental education, at the least, and outright parental hostility, at the worst. As I have reviewed the basic stats over the years, I am convinced that this is one issue that can be laid directly at the feet of the “sins of the parents”.
In fact, many of the most “liberal” AND “conservative” proponents of radically increased educational spending do so explicitly or implicitly because they have absolutely no faith in parents to participate to the extent necessary to educate their children properly to make them competitive.
The flip side of that, however, is the assumption on the part of the schools that parents actually understand many of the concepts that now are taught at a much lower age than they were when I was in school. There’s stuff my children do now in middle school that I didn’t do until high school – and I was on the highest track available to me. When schools base homework assignments on the assumption that parents can and will assist – especially when they assign homework as an introduction and expect kids to understand how to do it. (HUGE pet peeve of mine)
In summary, when schools give the impression of demanding assistance or demand assistance parents are educationally unable to provide (or even blame the parents for the kids’ performance – whether justified or not), they are not likely to gain the assistance they need. So, yes, parental involvement is important, but how school’s go about addressing it can make a big difference – and too few administrators consider that closely enough.
Good point, Starfoxy (#36). Yes, “socialist” laws in European countries certainly provide for more free time from work… On the other hand, attention given to schooling does not necessarily need much “time” as if parents need to sit hours with kids every evening and weekend. It’s more a question of attitude, a little time at crucial moments (such as decisions on tracks and course selection), emphasis on the importance of education, quick checking of homework done.
Excellent remarks, Ray (#37). It reminds of another typical problem that directly relates to what you address: the too helpful parents that disturb the intended educational process and harm, unwittingly, other children. Education has become a lot of “self learning” with assignments and discovery learning as home work. Children with well-educated, “helpful” parents at home turn to them (or parents take the initiative to help), with usually very good results for the child. Teachers may be aware of this, but grades will normally still be much better than for children without such help, thus reinforcing the cycle that separates them. Solution as you suggest: “how schools go about addressing it can make a big difference” — both for too much help and too little.
I think a big factor that might be overlooked (although #27 got part of it) is the mentality of students in Europe. Being smart is not looked down upon, and teachers are actually respected.
That means that more kids spend time in public libraries and bookstores. It also means that more people want to become teachers, and more good teachers stay in the profession.
Walk into almost any junior high or high school in the U.S., and you’ll quickly realize that teachers are demeaned, talked back to, and generally despised. I believe this drives great teachers out of the profession and into professions where they can get they respect they deserve. Naturally, education in the US suffers because of that. In some countries in Europe, teachers are as well respected (and as highly qualified) as people who go to medical school or law school (although they aren’t paid more than teachers in the U.S. are). Better teachers equals better schools and smarter students.
My suspicion is that most American schools do well. It’s the long tail that is dragging the average down.
I see that as more a social problem than a consequence of any lack of funding.
True, most teachers in the US leave the field within 5 years, which is a shame considering that the art and science of teaching is mastered over a long learning curve, not the short span of a few teaching courses. FWIW I have felt more demeaned by parents than I have by students. Kids are kids, adults should know better.
#42: Agreed. Some parent’s lack of respect for teachers is a big part of the problem.
“Good point, Starfoxy (#36). Yes, “socialist” laws in European countries certainly provide for more free time from work… ”
Off-topic but worth it — you’ve reminded me of one of the classic de-motivational posters: http://despair.com/effort.html
That poster is funny, Frank, but I recall that the members of our ward in Paris worked very, very hard. I don’t know who was taking all those 30-35 hour work weeks, but it wasn’t anyone we knew. But everyone did get August off!
Teaching was a big education for me. I taught in an extremely low socioeconomic area and my eyes were very much opened. I had students who didn’t have water in their homes for three months. Students in and out of different homes, some with extreme poverty, many neglected or abused. I had twins w/ the same exact name because the mom didn’t feel like expending the energy to think of two different names (and yes, they were identical). One out of school more than in, one who’s father sold drugs under the bridge by the hospital (she went with him), and one dead by the end of the year when her mother’s boyfriend lost control of the car when he was trying to elude the cops and she was thrown out of the vehicle. Academically, they came to me in Kindergarten not knowing shapes or colors let alone letters, then we as teachers were punished when they scored low on standardized tests. Most of the parents did not care and did not want any input from me. When I could find them. For all my ideals about changing the world, I burnt out in four years, I’m ashamed to say.
Another thought: maybe LDS youth activities do compete w/ school, but I’m not sure it’s worth it to me to give them up for education’s sake. My year teaching middle school and dealing with sexting, major peer pressure, etc, is what comes to mind as far as that goes.
My daughter, by the way, goes to a magnet public elem. school in a rather scary section of town. It’s a fantastic school though, with a fantastic education, and two-thirds of the students are choiced in. Most of the one-third that’s not, again, are the ones performing poorly.
So my question is: how do you change that? When you can’t change the homes, the lack of parent involvement, the lack of male figures, there doesn’t seem much you can do. Do these scenarios occur in Europe? If so, how does it affect education there?
Yes, Frank (44), that’s how we perpetuate stereotypes… And Jim is right! On the other hand, for what it’s worth, there may be some things to consider to take more time off or just to slow down. Perhaps Carl Honoré’s praise of slow is right on some issues… Something, I, as a European, need to learn too…
Amy (46), thanks for that heartfelt contribution. I have no answer to your question than to support any politicians who will use their infliuence to help bring change in this area. Much is already done in some areas, but much more needs to be done. As to the church, you’re right, it should never be a choice between church activities and study for education’s sake. But sometimes, in certain circumstances in the mission field, some local leaders could use more wisdom to ensure a proper balance and make sure their young people have enough time to simply succeed at school.
Jim,
I think the background for the poster was a law passed in 2000 that made the standard work week 35 hours in France. A little googling suggests that the law was later weakened and that it did not make more work illegal, it just required it to be paid overtime. This, of course, makes firms less willing to let you work more hours.
In the U.S., we have the same thing for more than 40 hours of wage work but it doesn’t apply to salaried workers. Quite possibly France has similar exceptions.
But yes, policies like this would encourage people to not spend as much time in the work force, which they could then allocate to their kids.
Another issue is number of children. Europe’s lower birth rate means that they would focus more attention on the fewer number of children they have, even if they allocate the same total amount of time to children as Americans.
Amy (46), watch the movie I saw, The Class (French title: Entre les murs, 2008). You’ll see that at least some inner-city Parisian schools have similar problems.
My only question is whether the proportion of the popluation that are the source of these kind of problems is as high in Europe as it is here.
Kent, not in general. France is getting there, I think. In any case, that is one of the reasons the nationwide comparisons are unreliable barometers of the quality of the educational system. 95% of test score achievement is driven by things highly correlated to demographics, which vary widely across countries. And it is not immediately obvious how to effectively control for such things.
Frank, what’s your take on the PISA test? It’s at the center of most debates on education where I live now (Austria), but I don’t get the impression that it’s talked about much in the US.
Great post and thread.
Japan tracks early–by high school at least–and “teaches the test” starting from junior high school somtime. Teachers are respected by students and parents and have higher status (and pay) than teachers in the US generally. I’ve found the elementary schools very satisfying so far but am a little worried about the “teach the test” aspect of upper secondary school. Also, I think in Japan education (and the exams) serves a stronger role in the national allocation of human resources and the eventual losers and winners sweepstakes.
Peter and comet’s comments are very revealing. To the extent that Austria cares about the PISA, and so teaches to it, their score will certainly rise. It is a well known fact in education that scores can be improved on a given test by focusing on its format, even if other tests reveal no improvement. That would be interesting to look at.
Peter, I don’t have any particular concerns about the PISA, but rather with the idea that differences in standardized tests can be usefully traced back to differences in the quality of education provided to the student. Institutional educational quality differences are a relatively minor input to a child’s test score. Socioeconomics and its correlates are a much bigger deal. Thus, as Jonathan mentioned above, the number of kids living in poverty or inner cities is probably a much bigger reason for the the cross-country differences than differences in parental inputs among the middle class.
Another thought; as a friend of mine who studies education put it, we have a perfectly fine school system in general mingled with an inner city disaster of a school system. Hence the commonly heard refrain about how the school system is a wreck but “my school” is fine.
Frank highlights my basic response to these studies. Let me compare the results of middle-to-upper-middle class suburban public school systems with the equivalent schools from other countries.
I think 41 makes this basic case.
My children’s school district is one of the tops where I live. I’m not interested in comparing, for example, the Dallas ISD against other cities or states. I’m interested in comparing *my* school district against other cities or states.
To the points made by the penultimate paragraph – this is where I think Mormons get into trouble with overprogramming. Maybe we should seriously think about not branding our kids as “less active” because they don’t go to Boy Scouts or Young Women on a faithful, weekly basis. Maybe we ought to be looking at how the youth programs “fit” into our children’s overall educational and spiritual experience.
(Esp. if they are already faithful in their attendance at early morning seminary.)
I’m fond of reminding leaders in my ward that there’s only about 3 universities in the world who care about the Personal Progress Award. Yes, young women should earn it. And it’s not difficult to do this in 6 years. But kids get into college on the basis of academic achievement, and weekly Church activities shouldn’t be getting in the way.
Just a little late but I want to add my comment.
Indeed parental involvement in education is way higher in Europe as is the importance of family unity . In the US system , social life and extra curriculum activities keep youth away from home and diminish the gravity of school responsabilities.
Even though well intended , church activities often do not help the family nor the education of our children .
I appreciate my Belgian upbringing but must add that the US schoolsystem is less stressful . American kids also have higher [ maybe too high ] self esteem .
To illustrate my believes , I homeschool my children so I can give them the best without too much stress or distractions . The older children have attended private schools for some of their education [ AM overseas schools ] , one attended a Utah high school for three months and this was a very negative experience . So here I am teaching my younger children a love of learning . I put books in their hands , point out famous paintings , show them the Antwerp trainstation on u tube , teach history with stories from Pol Pot or WWII , we memorize THE FAMILY etc.
When a child has a desire to learn and to progress he will find a way . That is why parental example and interest are crucial in a child’s upbringing no matter where or under what circumstances he lives .
Marie Joseph