I RESIGN FROM TIMES AND SEASONS

April 8, 2009 | 97 comments
By

[Pause] [taps microphone] [aside: 'hey, can someone turn down the volume on this thing? Thanks.]

Since the vicious partisan scandals surrounding my administration have become a distraction from the important work of the American people, I hereby announce that I am stepping down from position of wealth and power as a Times and Seasons co-blogger to spend more time with my family. I vigorously deny all wrong-doing and solemnly promise to devote my time to searching for the real killers.

I really am resigning and setting up a new blog called the Junior Ganymede, www.jrganymede.com. I’m quitting amicably. Though I wouldn’t want most of my former cobloggers to be in charge of picking a teacher for my children, I would be happy to have most of them be a teacher for my children.* I like ‘em all. My former cobloggers have graciously allowed me to retain my access to the backroom while I transfer my old drafts and steal their code for the new site. They also have graciously allowed me to pick a suitable post from the Junior Ganymede for cross-posting here every week or so.

My only regret is that the Times and Seasons back list conversations were often so critical of me and that some of them were eventually published, despite our understanding that they were to be confidential. (I went by ‘Marty Peretz’ on the back list.)

So long, see ya around.

*Yes, this is deliberately obscure. Waah.

97 Responses to I RESIGN FROM TIMES AND SEASONS

  1. Marc Bohn on April 8, 2009 at 10:17 am

    Sorry to see you go, but glad you’ll still be around in some capacity. All the best.

  2. Janet on April 8, 2009 at 10:37 am

    Though “spend more time with my family” may have achieved euphemism status in American politics, I’d say it’s a laudable goal which in your case I believe. Though our views may not match up on a whole lot else, I’ve always very much enjoyed your “Mormon Life” posts. Best of luck to you and your beautiful family. Kids are so much more entertaining than blogging anyhow!

  3. Eric Nielson on April 8, 2009 at 10:38 am

    Is this a fake hang up?

  4. Adam Greenwood on April 8, 2009 at 10:42 am

    Nope, not a fake. Hey, Greenwood, don’t let the door hit you on your way out!

  5. NoCoolName_Tom on April 8, 2009 at 11:03 am

    You think he’s gone!? He’s not gone! That’s the whole point! He’s never gone! :-)

    Seriously, good luck with the new blog – already bookmarked.

  6. Adam Greenwood on April 8, 2009 at 11:20 am

    I will only become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

  7. Guy Murray on April 8, 2009 at 11:21 am

    Best to you Adam Greenwood. Will look forward to your new digs.

  8. David H. Sundwall on April 8, 2009 at 11:41 am

    Likewise, I’m sad to hear you are leaving T&S.

    I fear it will be losing some sorely needed balance.

    Reading some of the background on your new blog was revealing to say the least of the behind the scenes drama at T&S.

    Best of luck at Junior Ganymede.

  9. Ben on April 8, 2009 at 11:45 am

    I have an intelligent friend who is convinced that T&S and BCC are a bunch of NOMs masquerading as active and faithful members. I have argued against him strenuously in the past. This, unfortunately, will compel me to acknowledge that he’s partially right.

  10. Adam Greenwood on April 8, 2009 at 11:53 am

    Ladies and gentleman, please refrain from comments like #8 and #9 in this thread. Thank you.

  11. Ben on April 8, 2009 at 11:55 am

    Apologies for the comment. Feel free to delete it and this.

  12. Steve Evans on April 8, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    Ben, you have an intelligent friend?

  13. ECS on April 8, 2009 at 12:15 pm

    Brother Greenwood, you crazy mo-fo, I’ll miss your antics around here. Best of luck, you hear?

  14. Adam Greenwood on April 8, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    Steve E.,
    its me.

    ECS,
    I hear.

  15. meems on April 8, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    Whhaaa….?

  16. Palad on April 8, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    But 8 and 9 express my feelings exactly. With Adam gone and KW still around, this blog is no longer worth my time.

  17. manaen on April 8, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    Adam,
    .
    Your voice was one of the main attractions for me to come to T&S when I first started blogging a few years ago — and you’ve been one of the reasons that I’ve considered T&S my “home” blog. This clearly will be a less-attractive place for me in your absence.
    .
    Ah, well, families move every day. I look forward to future gatherings on your new blog.
    .
    Hope you continue the annual Betsey Pearl posting on your new blog.
    .
    Best to you.

  18. Ben on April 8, 2009 at 12:35 pm

    Just 1, Steve. The rest are sub-par.

  19. Peter LLC on April 8, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    So long, farewell, auf Wiedersehen, good-bye/I hate to go and leave this pretty site!

  20. jimbob on April 8, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    I am saddened by this expulsion/resignation. It appears to me to be akin to viewpoint discrimination, which would be fine if Mr. Greenwood was a neo-nazi or a Wiccan. But given that his views are usually pretty well in line with stated Mormon orthodoxy–with a few flourishes, of course–such an expulsion/resignation gives me pause. This is especially true given that Mr. Evans rarely posts anymore.

    I’m beginning to think that mild/moderate Mormon heterodoxy is the orthodoxy in the bloggernacle, and that those without these more “liberated” views are becoming ostracized. But that’s probably just the sadness in me in seeing Mr. Greenwood go.

  21. Marc Bohn on April 8, 2009 at 1:15 pm

    There was no expulsion. Adam was asked by many to reconsider his voluntary decision to leave, but he decided starting his own blog was the direction that was best for him.

  22. tumbleweed_blowing_on_by on April 8, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    whhishhh-ishhh-isshhh-whhhiiiissshhhh

  23. mmiles on April 8, 2009 at 1:19 pm

    I truly am disappointed in the whole debacle. However, the new site looks very promising.

  24. Dan on April 8, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    jimbob,

    Was he expelled or did he leave of his own free will? From what I’ve read over on his new site under the post explaining why he left, he, well, left. He was not forced out.

  25. Adam Greenwood on April 8, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    Correct. I was forced to leave by the government mind-control rays, not by my former cobloggers. When I said I was “resigning” and that the parting was “amicable,” I meant that I was resigning and that the parting was amicable.

  26. Chad too on April 8, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    Does the vest go with him?

  27. Adam Greenwood on April 8, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    Yea, verily. When I told King Solomon I’d rather give it to them rather than see it split in two, he gave me full custody.

  28. bbell on April 8, 2009 at 1:35 pm

    I wanted to echo my fellow Texan jimbob.

    There seems to be a trend away from what I would consider more mainstream LDS thought in the bloggernaccle. Adam’s leaving T&S and Matt Evan’s evaporation has left a hole that needs to be filled.

  29. Peter LLC on April 8, 2009 at 1:40 pm

    Are you a valet, Adam?

  30. Adam Greenwood on April 8, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    No, Peter LLC. But the kindly presiding Lars of our little blog is a gentleman’s personal gentleman.

  31. Dan Eastmond on April 8, 2009 at 1:46 pm

    Fine thing, I post my first response to an LDS blog and within a week, Adam breaks camp!

  32. Marc Bohn on April 8, 2009 at 1:49 pm

    So it’s all Dan’s fault…

  33. Andrew S. on April 8, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    I’m not even going to lie; this is kinda scandalous and exciting.

    Adam Greenwood *is* T&S for me, regardless of the fact that I can’t say I’m anywhere near orthodox enough to be anywhere near close to agreeing with him.

    very interesting…

  34. Dan Eastmond on April 8, 2009 at 1:56 pm

    To quote the architect, “since the vicious partisan scandals surrounding my administration have become a distraction from the important work of the American people, I hereby announce that I am stepping down from position of wealth and power as a Times and Seasons co-blogger to spend more time with my family. I vigorously deny all wrong-doing and solemnly promise to devote my time to searching for the real killers.”

  35. Janet on April 8, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    jimbob, I must say I have never seen “neo-nazi” or “wiccan” in the same phrase :). I assume they were meant to illustrate far ends of a spectrum and not as a marriage of viewpoints. Still, quite the conjuction (junction, what’s your function). Sadly, I know know several LDS neo-nazis. The LDS wiccans I know just take Moses 7 rather literally.

    Good luck with the Ganymede, Adam!

  36. Rusty on April 8, 2009 at 2:01 pm

    I want to make a coward joke but I’m afraid nobody would get it except you Adam, but that you wouldn’t find it funny anyway, so I guess I’ll refrain.

    I regret that you will be leaving, though I’m sure we’ll still see you in the peanut gallery, right?

  37. Adam Greenwood on April 8, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    Ah, c’mon, Rusty. My personal policy is always to post jokes if *I* find them funny.

  38. Ardis Parshall on April 8, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    Liar, liar, pants on fire.

  39. Alpha Echo on April 8, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    Too bad. I always enjoyed your posts.

  40. Jacob J on April 8, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    So this is what Banner of Heaven was like?

  41. mmiles on April 8, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    I think Banner of Heaven was meant of be humorous. Maybe this is too?

  42. Mark Brown on April 8, 2009 at 2:59 pm

    jimbob, bbell: So, so true. Adam’s exit now just leaves this blog wide open to the outrageous rantings of those flaming liberal apostates like Julie, Marc, Kent, Dave, Ardis, Jonathan, Wilfried and Nate.

    Geez, guys. Get a grip. And instead of using drive-by innuendo, grow enough hair on your chest to tell Julie to her face that she is not mainstream Mormon.

  43. WMP on April 8, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    For some reason, the Newsroom has yet to pick up on this.

  44. MCQ on April 8, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    Julie, you’re not mainstream Mormon. Thank God.

  45. Kaimi Wenger on April 8, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    Thanks for blogging with us while you did, Adam. It’s been an interesting community, and it wouldn’t have been the same without you.

    Also, I’m awfully glad I never told you about my heroin addiction.

  46. Kent Larsen on April 8, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    I want to add my voice to those who wish Adam well, and who try to make it clear that we here at T&S WANT conservative or orthodox voices. We need articulate and intelligent voices with all sorts of viewpoints.

    Personally, I would vote to add an orthodox voice as conservative or more conservative than Adam in a minute, provided the prospective blogger was willing to abide by T&S’ rules.

    We need that balance here, and I do agree that Adam’s departure feels like it puts us a little out-of balance.

  47. Jana on April 8, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    I agree with the sentiment that there is a hole that needs to be filled with this departure. I hope the admins are reflecting on this.

  48. kevinf on April 8, 2009 at 3:26 pm

    Adam, while I rarely agreed with you, you were sometimes literate, witty, intelligent, and occasionally even well informed. Honestly, though, I’ll miss when you take up your new job with the Obama administration. I’ll check out the new blog, as well.

  49. SW on April 8, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    You may know this already, but in light of your posts on SSM, I find it ironic that in greek mythology Ganymede is a beautiful boy that Zeus falls in love with.

  50. S.P. Bailey on April 8, 2009 at 3:32 pm

    Likely: T&S will fill its conservative/orthodox void.
    Considerably less likely: T&S will ever have another blogger with Adam Greenwood levels of style, humor, and etc.

    I believe Adam Greenwood is a real person. Even if he isn’t though, I know he is a compelling character. I will be watching the spinoff.

  51. Jonathan Green on April 8, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    We ought to start a casting show: “So you think you can be a T&S blogger?”

  52. Steve Evans on April 8, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    I hereby volunteer to plug T&S’s hole.

  53. S.P. Bailey on April 8, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    The little [Canadian] boy with his finger in the dike!

    Sadly, Steve, you are too pink.

  54. Ken on April 8, 2009 at 3:55 pm

    “I hereby volunteer to plug T&S’s hole.”

    Wow. Steve Evans is *always* looking for a little “junior Ganymede,” as he likes to call it.

  55. jimbob on April 8, 2009 at 4:02 pm

    “Geez, guys. Get a grip. And instead of using drive-by innuendo, grow enough hair on your chest to tell Julie to her face that she is not mainstream Mormon.”

    I don’t just have hair on my chest, Marc, I’ve got hair on my back. And a lot of it. Does that make me extra-manly, or just a pariah? I’m hoping the former.

    The answer to your larger question, though, is probably best answered by MCQ’s comment: “Julie, you’re not mainstream Mormon. Thank God.”

    There seems to me to be this sentiment a lot in the bloggernacle–that the worst thing you could ever possibly be is a “mainstream Mormon.” I’m not sure what MCQ meant by that phrase, but I assume it has something to do with being orthodox in belief. You know, those nutjobs we’re forced to spend three hours on Sunday with who believe that the Church is usually inspired of God and that the Brethren actually do know what they’re talking about, even when they’re talking about difficult issues like homosexuality and abortion. In fact, I assume that most “mainstream Mormons” don’t even know what NOMs are, let alone frequent their websites to make sympathetic comments.

    My point is that there seem to be very few here who stand up for the so-called “mainstream Mormon” orthodoxy as often, as eloquently, or as consistently as Mr. Greenwood did (it may just be a function of time, a problem with which I’m sympathetic). I’m willing to admit that that may just be my perception. But I’m also willing to bet that I’m not the only one with that perception.

  56. Kent Larsen on April 8, 2009 at 4:14 pm

    jimbob (54), part of this is simply perception. If we only talk about the conventional, the orthodox, I think it might be a bit boring. Plus, we all have egos, and the stronger your ego, the more you are interested in standing out from the crowd. So, the opinions of those who are willing to speak out — who have the ego to put their ideas out where they can be criticized by anyone — are a little more likely to be unorthodox.

    Perhaps that doesn’t explain everything.

    In any case, I’m interested in trying to find a reasonable balance on T&S.

  57. Cynthia L. on April 8, 2009 at 4:21 pm

    Adam, it’s safe to say we have our differences when it comes to partisan politics. But I for one very much valued your voice on all things related to the gospel, and I’m sorry to see you leave T&S. Congratulations and best of luck on your new venture.

  58. Hunter on April 8, 2009 at 4:25 pm

    So, jimbob, even with all your back hair, you still weren’t able to respond to Mark Brown (“And instead of using drive-by innuendo, grow enough hair on your chest to tell Julie to her face that she is not mainstream Mormon.”

    What a lousy waste of back hair.

  59. Steve Evans on April 8, 2009 at 4:27 pm

    Kent, you speak ill of yourself and of your fellow permabloggers when you say that you are interested in trying to find a balance at T&S. That balance already exists – look at your roster. Julie, Marc, Dave, Jonathan, Wilfried, Nate… you should stick up more for your team-mates and their repeatedly-proven capacity to represent the best of mainstream Mormonism and LDS thought anywhere.

    I can’t believe I have to defend T&S to itself. WAKE UP ALREADY.

  60. Janet on April 8, 2009 at 4:33 pm

    Gotta agree with Steve. You guys have a good cross-section of writers. Utilize them and be glad. And see if you can Ros writing again, because I really miss her.

  61. Jeff on April 8, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    You should invite a General Authority to co-blog. Like Marlin K. Jensen, for instance. He’d bring some balance to the force. And he’s a Democrat.

  62. Matt W. on April 8, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    I am so confused. I thought Kaimi quit T&S and went to BCC (they’ll take anyone with a doctorate, ya know?)

  63. MCQ on April 8, 2009 at 5:38 pm

    Jimbob: FYI, it was a joke. Thanks for ruining it.

  64. gst on April 8, 2009 at 5:39 pm

    Adam, did you learn to blog from a book, and if so, might I borrow it?

  65. Kent Larsen on April 8, 2009 at 5:41 pm

    Steve Evans (58), I appreciate the wake-up slap, but I still think we’d be better off with another voice on the more orthodox, conservative side of things. I feel like too many people agree with me! [GRIN]

    This is really an issue of how orthodox we are compared to our audience, and I’d much rather be spouting my views (which so many here call liberal while in my neighborhood they generally come across conservative) to a broader, more conservative audience.

    I’m not interested in preaching to the choir.

  66. Steve Evans on April 8, 2009 at 5:54 pm

    “I feel like too many people agree with me!”

    Next time you feel that way go back and read your G.C. post, Kent.

  67. Steve Evans on April 8, 2009 at 6:02 pm

    Sorry, that was harsh.

  68. Aluwid on April 8, 2009 at 6:21 pm

    In terms of pure awesomeness your only hope to truly replace Adam would be to recruit gst or DKL. Otherwise I think it is a futile endeavor.

  69. Jared on April 8, 2009 at 6:28 pm

    It’s refreshing to see someone “stand for something”. That can be taken two ways. Standing in the middle isn’t refreshing. Standing for something, whatever it is, is better than running around in the middle ground shouting at those who are standing for something.

    For me, its the kingdom of God or nothing–at least I’m planning in that direction. I hope all will join me–stand for something!

  70. Adam Greenwood on April 8, 2009 at 6:32 pm

    Ms. Aluwid,
    your views are sound and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

  71. TT on April 8, 2009 at 6:58 pm

    Kent, “more orthodox, conservative side”

    FWIW, I think that the persistent conflation of these issues is a huge disservice to the blogs and to the Mormon community in general. While I certainly agree that Adam was “conservative,” I cannot in good conscience say that he was “orthodox.” I echo the comments above that T&S is filled with fantastic, conservative, even “mainstream” LDS minds. No need for another drama queen to round out the roster.

    I wish him the best in his new home.

  72. Raymond Takashi Swenson on April 8, 2009 at 7:20 pm

    I frankly have not felt that I could make a judgement on anyone’s place on the political or Mormon religious spectrums based on a their various blog entries or comments. There is always a level of playfulness (as shown above) and the practice of playing devil’s advocate or agent provocateur in order to liven up the discussion, so that I cannot say from one day to the next what I expect any permablogger to say about any particular issue. I have a sneaking suspicion that most of us think of ourselves standing at the golden median between the poles of blind obedience and spiritually enlightened intellect, while to really place us in relation to the viewpoints of other Mormons would require a multi-dimensional grid that does a Copernican demotion of us from the center of our own personal intellectual universes into a random location in opinion space that is not privileged or unique.

    Has anyone ever done a study to really map out the different dimensions of LDS viewpoints? Sort of a Myers-Briggs personality and opinion inventory for Mormons?

    Best of luck with the new blog, Adam.

  73. Kent Larsen on April 8, 2009 at 7:24 pm

    I appreciate all the comments explaining how our balance is so good. I’m glad we have so many fans.

    Please take my comments in the context intended. My worry is about keeping in touch with our potential audience — which is mainstream, faithful LDS Church members, on and off the Internet. I worry that we are out of balance with that audience.

    To be frank, I worry that many of those that commented here in our defense are more representative of the bloggernacle than of the Church.

    I must admit that I hope I’m wrong and you are right.

  74. Ray on April 8, 2009 at 7:37 pm

    Fwiw, Kent, I think all of us are “representative of the Church” – and, to go all Mormon on you and back up my assertion by turning to apostolic utterances, I think Elder Wirthlin would agree that all the instruments represent the great creative whole – and, based on their Conference talks, Elder Cook and Elder Anderson would say so, as well.

  75. TMD on April 8, 2009 at 7:45 pm

    I must say that, having read the explanation letter at jrganymede, I will probably return here less frequently.

  76. Kristine on April 8, 2009 at 7:46 pm

    Kent, don’t you think that bloggernacle discussions are _definitionally_ alien to what the broad “mainstream” membership is interested in? Folks who are content in Sunday School and reading the Ensign are never going to show up here.

    And while I admire Adam in many ways, and share his affliction with Anglo-Catholic Fiction Syndrome, I think it would be a stretch to say that his positions are mainstream. He most often stakes out a position that is significantly more conservative than the Church’s official statements on a given topic–one can hardly call that “orthodox,” even if it is very, very ortho.

  77. Janet on April 8, 2009 at 7:49 pm

    “Standing for something, whatever it is, is better than running around in the middle ground shouting at those who are standing for something.”

    I disagree, at least to the degree to which “running around in the middle [talking rather than shouting]” can also be called community building and peacemaking. You know. It’s not exactly an easy task. Binaries present a lot more comfort. Ask poor departed Eugene England, or Hugh B. Brown.

    For a more conservative but very compassionate voice, you could ask Ray. He won’t provide Adam’s drama (sorry Adam, but everyone loves Ray) but he does provide some thoughtful conservatism.

    OR GET ROS BACK! Yeah yeah, I know she just popped out yet another baby (lucky duck) but Rosalynde is the best muti-tasker I’ve ever known. I personally volunteer to fly to Missouri and lobby for her return.

  78. Geoff B on April 8, 2009 at 8:07 pm

    Speaking just for myself, I would say that Adam’s resignation and the explanation on Jr. Ganymede make it much less likely I will spend much time on T&S. Not that anybody necessarily cares. But there are probably others like me. T&S should carefully consider the fact that there are some faithful readers and commenters who are turned off by a blog where “Cafeteria Mormonism” is tolerated and apparently promoted.

  79. Chris H. on April 8, 2009 at 8:13 pm

    Geoff B,

    Stop, you are just trying to get me to like Times and Seasons. If this is not mainstream, even without Adam, then the Mormon mainstream is a poluted stream.

  80. Frank McIntyre on April 8, 2009 at 8:27 pm

    Geoff,

    You may wish to consider that what you have heard is decidedly less than half the story.It would be untoward to go into backroom discussions here, but you should recognize, as Adam does, that his discussion was not impartial on the matter.

    I think, though, that I can speak for T&S and say that we are in no way looking to “promote” cafeteria Mormonism.

    Speaking for myself, refusing to expel Kaimi from T&S for what I view as isolated and, frankly, injudicious remarks is a long way from promoting cafeteria Mormonism. If I judged Adam based on his most injudicious remarks I would miss out on a truly wonderful friend. Perhaps the same could be said for many. That said, I am not interested in a public discussion. If anyone has any questions they are welcome to email whoever they feel would give them the most accurate portrayal.

    Also, I disagree with Kristine, almost out of habit.

  81. Aaron T. on April 8, 2009 at 8:32 pm

    I’m glad those d*!n “cafeteria mormons” don’t resign from the church over matters such as these…..oh wait.

  82. Kristine on April 8, 2009 at 8:33 pm

    Oh, Frank–I’ve missed you!

  83. MS on April 8, 2009 at 8:56 pm

    #72 “Please take my comments in the context intended. My worry is about keeping in touch with our potential audience — which is mainstream, faithful LDS Church members, on and off the Internet. I worry that we are out of balance with that audience.

    To be frank, I worry that many of those that commented here in our defense are more representative of the bloggernacle than of the Church.”

    You’re right to worry. I loved this site, now it seems as if it has been a case of false advertising. Not sure if I will be back.

  84. Bookslinger on April 8, 2009 at 8:56 pm

    I believed the “spend more time with my family” part until I read the “setting up a new blog” part. Solo blogging eats up much more time than an occasional post on a group blog.

    I’ll still come back here to read posts and comments by the likes of Julie Smith, Ray Takahashi Swenson, Wilfried Decoo.

    But even without Adam, I think this blog is much farther towards the orthodoxy end of the spectrum than the other self-proclaimed faithful long-term group blogs of the old-school bloggernacle.

  85. Nate Oman on April 8, 2009 at 9:03 pm

    Frank basically states my own take on this. For what it is worth, I self identify as a faithful, mainstream Mormon. I serve in the Church, pay my tiithing, support the Brethren, and believe all of the outlandish stories about angels and golden plates.

  86. MCQ on April 8, 2009 at 9:08 pm

    “everyone loves Ray”

    Do I smell a new bloggernacle sit-com?

  87. Jared on April 8, 2009 at 9:17 pm

    #76 Janet–

    I’ve spent too much of my life being almost committed. Yes, have patience and be tender with those who are having a hard time with their testimony, but it’s disingenuous to be cameleon like, and end up being a server/waiter to those interested in cafeteria mormonism. Stand for something, by letting others know what you stand for–a peacemaker yes, equivocating peacemaker no. Good for Adam, he took a stand. When the dust settles he will have make a difference–especially to himself.

  88. Jared on April 8, 2009 at 9:28 pm

    #84 Nate–

    Believe a little bit more and you might have your own stories about angels and outlandish spiritual experiences. I did, and know it works. It really is a matter of hungering and thirsting for the companionship of the Holy Ghost.

  89. Steve Evans on April 8, 2009 at 9:34 pm

    Nate, Frank –

    This is one of the more lamentable side-effects of the method of Adam’s departures: awkward and boisterous declarations of orthodoxy at the expense of others. It’s lamentable not because declarations of faith are lamentable, but because here they are not naturally emerging as testimonies ought, but seem forced as a means of preserving readers such as Geoff B or Jared or MS or Bookslinger, who appear to demand them in exchange for their continued participation. As such they become litmus tests rather than a means of sharing faith and rejoicing together. Adam’s departure and the examination of Kaimi’s mormonism strike me as a sort of repulsive witch-hunt, with little more than blog readership at stake. We all look bad for participating in it.

  90. Guy W. Murray on April 8, 2009 at 9:40 pm

    It seems a bit disingenuous of Kaimi to hold himself out as one thing, when in reality it appears he is believing something entirely different as evidenced by his writings. I’ve now read several of the links Adam posted on his site. They are disturbing.

    Adam claims Kaimi is the person who blogged under the anonymous name of Cafeteria Mormon–at web sites less than favorable to the Church. Kaimi should either confirm this, or outright deny it–and be done with it.

    T&S’ own comment user policies in relevant part states:

    2. As a general matter, Times and Seasons is a forum for believing members or for others who are willing to respect members’ beliefs. Commenters do not need to believe in the Church, but comments that suggest that all believers are per se unintelligent or uninformed are not welcome.

    If T & S is a forum for believing members, then it follows its perma bloggers ought to be believing members. If Kaimi is the “Cafeteria Mormon”, and if he wrote what is attributed to him, I have a hard time understanding how those writings reflect a “believing member.” To me, not believing the historicity of the Book of Mormon takes one outside the category of a “believing member.”

    If one describes the doctrine of male priesthood authority as “patriarchal bullshit” that takes one outside the category of a “believing member.” There are certain core doctrines that I think a “believing member” needs to accept. One of the most core would be a belief in the historicity of the Book of Mormon. If Kaimi has in fact written what is attributed to him, then I have a hard time accepting him as a “believing member.”

    Now, whether T&S as a matter of blog policy decides to promote, maintain, or tolerate a perma blogger whose doctrinal beliefs are akin to what is attributed to Kaimi, then I think that calls into question whether in fact T&S can claim it is a forum for believing members.

    That said, I don’t know whether Kaimi confessed to Adam he is/was the Cafeteria Mormon who wrote the things that appears on those less than favorable to Mormonism websites. I can only take Adam’s word for it; but, if Kaimi refuses to rebut or deny these allegations, I am going to tend to believe Adam is telling the truth.

    Kent Larson wrote over at M&A

    At the least, the idea that T&S has “bloggers that are so against the church” is false. At most there is one blogger who has ambiguous feelings about elements of LDS doctrine. As far as I can tell, the rest of us are very committed to the Church

    From what I have read over the years, I think all the perma bloggers at T & S are very faithful members of the Church and believe its fundamental core doctrines. But, to characterize Kaimi as one who has ambiguous feelings, if in fact Kaimi’s feelings are truly reflected in the writings of Cafeteria Mormon–is an extremely generous characterization. Based on what evidence is available, Kaimi does not fit the definition of a perma blogger at a blog which defines itself as a place where “faithful believers” can have discourse. And, it’s not just a blog, Times and Seasons is in many ways a face for the Mormon faith on the Internet. The LDS Newsroom has linked, on more than one occasion to Times and Seasons.

    I think Kaimi as some splannin’ to do here. Either Kaimi is the “Cafeteria Mormon” and does not believe many core and fundamental doctrines required of a faithful member, or Adam has lied about him–in which case Kaimi should publicly and loudly publish his disclaimer.

    I for one am waiting.

  91. DKL on April 8, 2009 at 9:42 pm

    Kind of reminds me of a cartoon I saw the other day, right here.

    Anyway, I’m sad to see Adam go, but mostly for his own sake. If he doesn’t blog here, he won’t have any outlet for the all-consuming guilt that he feels for binge-patterned self-abuse.

  92. DKL on April 8, 2009 at 9:47 pm

    Oh, and I forget to mention: Three cheers for T&S, which finally has a fighting chance to become half the blog it used to be!

  93. Ben Pratt on April 8, 2009 at 9:52 pm

    #83

    “I believed the “spend more time with my family” part until I read the “setting up a new blog” part. Solo blogging eats up much more time than an occasional post on a group blog.”

    If by “my family” you understand “teh intawebz,” his statement was accurate.

    I, for one, will continue to visit T&S. I know that T&S is true.

    Also, I have to keep reading here because I don’t know what the heck* “Junior Ganymede” means.

    *heck: 1) exclamation used by mainstream, conservative, orthodox Mormons. 2) future destination of Kaimi Wenger.

  94. Nate Oman on April 8, 2009 at 10:00 pm

    Boisterous? moi?

  95. Jared on April 8, 2009 at 10:01 pm

    #88 Steve Evans–

    Unkind.

    I will gently reply that the word “demand” you used is uncalled for. I don’t view you as an unwelcome contributor to the Bloggernacle, but your own words tell what is in your heart regarding others that you don’t warm up to.

    I respect you and your opinions, I hope to receive the same.

    You’re welcome to come by my blog. I hope you do.

  96. Steve Evans on April 8, 2009 at 10:04 pm

    Nate, fair enough. Not boisterous.

  97. Marc Bohn on April 8, 2009 at 10:09 pm

    Thanks all. We’re shutting down comments on this thread now.

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