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	<title>Comments on: Adultery in Law</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/03/adultery-in-law/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Bookslinger</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/03/adultery-in-law/#comment-286760</link>
		<dc:creator>Bookslinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:10:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Alison/Adam,  and I concede that the situations I&#039;m trying to describe are likely only a small percentage of all cases of infidelity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alison/Adam,  and I concede that the situations I&#8217;m trying to describe are likely only a small percentage of all cases of infidelity.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/03/adultery-in-law/#comment-286759</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:43:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>A little more from Maggie Gallagher:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZDlhNDE2OTFmNWZhYzUzYTI3NTUxNDUwYmIzNjFkYTU=</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A little more from Maggie Gallagher:</p>
<p><a href="http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZDlhNDE2OTFmNWZhYzUzYTI3NTUxNDUwYmIzNjFkYTU" rel="nofollow">http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZDlhNDE2OTFmNWZhYzUzYTI3NTUxNDUwYmIzNjFkYTU</a>=</p>
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		<title>By: Bookslinger</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/03/adultery-in-law/#comment-286755</link>
		<dc:creator>Bookslinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 16:38:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Allison, the situations I&#039;m attempting to describe don&#039;t fall into the &quot;he did it first&quot; category, or are about retribution.

I sincerely regret not taking a fellow Melchizedek priesthood holder to the Stake President and charging him with spousal abuse back in the early 1980&#039;s.   I didn&#039;t understand the depths and depravity and life-long wounds of emotional/mental cruelty.  A couple years ago, I learned he charged his wife with adultery and divorced her.  In the meantime, I had gained a little more knowledge of human nature, and how to read people and situations, and I had learned how to interpret and understand the abusive event that I witnessed.

That he wouldn&#039;t &quot;let&quot; her leave until she gave him ammunition to make her the &quot;bad guy&quot;, now makes perfect sense in light of what I witnessed long ago.  Not that that was her conscious motive or reasoning.  

But there is such a thing as &quot;driving your spouse into the arms of another.&quot;  I&#039;ve seen how it can be done.  And in extremely cruel cases, my sympathies are with the victim of the abuse, even if she (or he) goes on to commit the sin/crime of adultery.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Allison, the situations I&#8217;m attempting to describe don&#8217;t fall into the &#8220;he did it first&#8221; category, or are about retribution.</p>
<p>I sincerely regret not taking a fellow Melchizedek priesthood holder to the Stake President and charging him with spousal abuse back in the early 1980&#8242;s.   I didn&#8217;t understand the depths and depravity and life-long wounds of emotional/mental cruelty.  A couple years ago, I learned he charged his wife with adultery and divorced her.  In the meantime, I had gained a little more knowledge of human nature, and how to read people and situations, and I had learned how to interpret and understand the abusive event that I witnessed.</p>
<p>That he wouldn&#8217;t &#8220;let&#8221; her leave until she gave him ammunition to make her the &#8220;bad guy&#8221;, now makes perfect sense in light of what I witnessed long ago.  Not that that was her conscious motive or reasoning.  </p>
<p>But there is such a thing as &#8220;driving your spouse into the arms of another.&#8221;  I&#8217;ve seen how it can be done.  And in extremely cruel cases, my sympathies are with the victim of the abuse, even if she (or he) goes on to commit the sin/crime of adultery.</p>
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		<title>By: Bookslinger</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/03/adultery-in-law/#comment-286751</link>
		<dc:creator>Bookslinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 16:21:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/03/adultery-in-law/#comment-286751</guid>
		<description>Adam: as far as deciding whether the law was broken or not, you are correct that it doesn&#039;t matter what the adultery is about.  

However, in the area of judgements and punishments, which your original post and comments delve into, I think it matters a great deal, along with motivations, mitigating factors, and even greater sins/crimes on the part of the spouse making the accusation.

I used to be of the opinion &quot;why doesn&#039;t she just leave him?&quot; in regards to abused wives who go on to commit adultery. But as I learned more about human nature, and the dynamics of marital and family abuse, I realized it&#039;s much more complicated, and that &quot;just leaving&quot; is not that simple, and in the eyes of the abuse victim, often impossible.

I&#039;ve met a few severely abusive men who&#039;ve made me think that their being cuckolded would be fitting.

On a related note about your Navajo friend&#039;s statement, the death penalty for moral transgressions is not without precedent among aboriginal Americans.  According to Garcilaso de la Vega, (one of the last of Incan royalty, and who was sent to Spain for education), in his book &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Incas-Royal-commentaries-Inca-Garcilaso/dp/B001OQX5J2/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Incas&lt;/a&gt;&quot;, their punishment for homosexual acts was burning at the stake.

If you feel an affinity for American Indians, I recommend reading the book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam: as far as deciding whether the law was broken or not, you are correct that it doesn&#8217;t matter what the adultery is about.  </p>
<p>However, in the area of judgements and punishments, which your original post and comments delve into, I think it matters a great deal, along with motivations, mitigating factors, and even greater sins/crimes on the part of the spouse making the accusation.</p>
<p>I used to be of the opinion &#8220;why doesn&#8217;t she just leave him?&#8221; in regards to abused wives who go on to commit adultery. But as I learned more about human nature, and the dynamics of marital and family abuse, I realized it&#8217;s much more complicated, and that &#8220;just leaving&#8221; is not that simple, and in the eyes of the abuse victim, often impossible.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve met a few severely abusive men who&#8217;ve made me think that their being cuckolded would be fitting.</p>
<p>On a related note about your Navajo friend&#8217;s statement, the death penalty for moral transgressions is not without precedent among aboriginal Americans.  According to Garcilaso de la Vega, (one of the last of Incan royalty, and who was sent to Spain for education), in his book &#8220;<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Incas-Royal-commentaries-Inca-Garcilaso/dp/B001OQX5J2/" rel="nofollow">The Incas</a>&#8220;, their punishment for homosexual acts was burning at the stake.</p>
<p>If you feel an affinity for American Indians, I recommend reading the book.</p>
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		<title>By: Alison Moore Smith</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/03/adultery-in-law/#comment-286750</link>
		<dc:creator>Alison Moore Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:57:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/03/adultery-in-law/#comment-286750</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with Adam on that. The command not to commit adultery isn&#039;t conditional based on the motive.

&lt;blockquote&gt;And the cruelty committed against the “adulterous” spouse (prior to the adultery) may make the sin of adultery pale in comparison.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Similarly, I don&#039;t think comparative sin is really a defense. That sounds like what my kids say when they get in trouble. Passing off what they did, based on what their sibling did &lt;b&gt;first&lt;/b&gt;.

As I say to my kids, &quot;I&#039;m not talking to [maligned sibling]. I&#039;m talking to you. I&#039;ll address [maligned sibling&#039;s] with [maligned sibling].&quot;

I suspect that choosing to commit adultery is a choice...even if someone else does something worse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Adam on that. The command not to commit adultery isn&#8217;t conditional based on the motive.</p>
<blockquote><p>And the cruelty committed against the “adulterous” spouse (prior to the adultery) may make the sin of adultery pale in comparison.</p></blockquote>
<p>Similarly, I don&#8217;t think comparative sin is really a defense. That sounds like what my kids say when they get in trouble. Passing off what they did, based on what their sibling did <b>first</b>.</p>
<p>As I say to my kids, &#8220;I&#8217;m not talking to [maligned sibling]. I&#8217;m talking to you. I&#8217;ll address [maligned sibling's] with [maligned sibling].&#8221;</p>
<p>I suspect that choosing to commit adultery is a choice&#8230;even if someone else does something worse.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/03/adultery-in-law/#comment-286747</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:42:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/03/adultery-in-law/#comment-286747</guid>
		<description>Bookslinger,
it doesn&#039;t matter what the adultery is about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bookslinger,<br />
it doesn&#8217;t matter what the adultery is about.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/03/adultery-in-law/#comment-286746</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:41:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/03/adultery-in-law/#comment-286746</guid>
		<description>Silver Rain,
the old tort of alienation of affection could concievably apply to an &#039;emotional affair,&#039; though I don&#039;t think anyone ever brought that kind of claim.  I don&#039;t think there&#039;s any law that would potentially cover this now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Silver Rain,<br />
the old tort of alienation of affection could concievably apply to an &#8216;emotional affair,&#8217; though I don&#8217;t think anyone ever brought that kind of claim.  I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s any law that would potentially cover this now.</p>
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		<title>By: SilverRain</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/03/adultery-in-law/#comment-286743</link>
		<dc:creator>SilverRain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 13:36:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/03/adultery-in-law/#comment-286743</guid>
		<description>Also, as Bookslinger pointed out, whether or not a person considers it right, I imagine is true that adultery can be more about seeking safety or approval than about sex or even love. I know women who use sex to feel either emotionally or physically safe, and I assume they confuse love with feelings of (at least relative) safety.

For some, I would also conjecture that adultery can be about needing to exert some kind of power over their lives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, as Bookslinger pointed out, whether or not a person considers it right, I imagine is true that adultery can be more about seeking safety or approval than about sex or even love. I know women who use sex to feel either emotionally or physically safe, and I assume they confuse love with feelings of (at least relative) safety.</p>
<p>For some, I would also conjecture that adultery can be about needing to exert some kind of power over their lives.</p>
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		<title>By: SilverRain</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/03/adultery-in-law/#comment-286742</link>
		<dc:creator>SilverRain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 13:33:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Kaimi&#8212;Thank you for your answer. It seems like it would be hard to prove a physical affair in court, absent any documentation, and even harder for an emotional one. 

More curiosity: what legally constitutes an emotional affair, anyways, or do the courts ignore that completely? Is an emotional affair actually falling in love, or is it simply confiding emotional difficulty in someone? Especially with the current cultural shift regarding gender and sex, how could lines be drawn between confiding in someone as a friend, and confiding in someone as a lover, if there is no sex involved?

Would that potentially mean that a married person must be afraid to associate too closely with anyone of either gender to avoid accusations of an emotional affair?

Sorry about all the questions, I&#039;m just completely ignorant on how the legal system deals with these sorts of things, and I&#039;ve never thought about it before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kaimi&mdash;Thank you for your answer. It seems like it would be hard to prove a physical affair in court, absent any documentation, and even harder for an emotional one. </p>
<p>More curiosity: what legally constitutes an emotional affair, anyways, or do the courts ignore that completely? Is an emotional affair actually falling in love, or is it simply confiding emotional difficulty in someone? Especially with the current cultural shift regarding gender and sex, how could lines be drawn between confiding in someone as a friend, and confiding in someone as a lover, if there is no sex involved?</p>
<p>Would that potentially mean that a married person must be afraid to associate too closely with anyone of either gender to avoid accusations of an emotional affair?</p>
<p>Sorry about all the questions, I&#8217;m just completely ignorant on how the legal system deals with these sorts of things, and I&#8217;ve never thought about it before.</p>
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		<title>By: NOYDMB1234</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/03/adultery-in-law/#comment-286731</link>
		<dc:creator>NOYDMB1234</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 04:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/03/adultery-in-law/#comment-286731</guid>
		<description>Kaimi,
According to &quot;Misquoting Jesus&quot; the entire story was added post gospel-writing.  I would have expected one of the &quot;elite who know better than the brethren on Prop 8&quot; to know something so simple as textual criticism on his proof-texts.

[Ed. - Cool it, me hearty.  I&#039;ve asked KW to back out of the thread, so parting potshots are bad form.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kaimi,<br />
According to &#8220;Misquoting Jesus&#8221; the entire story was added post gospel-writing.  I would have expected one of the &#8220;elite who know better than the brethren on Prop 8&#8243; to know something so simple as textual criticism on his proof-texts.</p>
<p>[Ed. - Cool it, me hearty.  I've asked KW to back out of the thread, so parting potshots are bad form.]</p>
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