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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Twenty-Mark Note&#8221; Experiences</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/01/twenty-mark-note-experiences/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Bookslinger</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/01/twenty-mark-note-experiences/#comment-283682</link>
		<dc:creator>Bookslinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 06:59:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5336#comment-283682</guid>
		<description>Those stories in the back of the Ensign are true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those stories in the back of the Ensign are true.</p>
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		<title>By: Sheldon</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/01/twenty-mark-note-experiences/#comment-283679</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheldon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 03:24:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5336#comment-283679</guid>
		<description>Bruce,

Thanks for sharing. I likely won&#039;t forget the image of &quot;An angel smoking a cigar&quot; for a while.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce,</p>
<p>Thanks for sharing. I likely won&#8217;t forget the image of &#8220;An angel smoking a cigar&#8221; for a while.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/01/twenty-mark-note-experiences/#comment-283678</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 01:35:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5336#comment-283678</guid>
		<description>Here’s a 20 mark experience that I’m grateful for, but I’m not sure what to make of it, even 30 years later.

In 1979 we moved from Orem to Seattle for graduate school. I had no idea how much more expensive life would be in Seattle than Orem. Rent was triple, and gas was double (we moved right at the time of the Iranian revolution). We packed everything we had into an 8-foot U-haul, and to avoid drop-off fees, we rented the U-haul to Yakima instead of Seattle. We didn’t have housing lined up in Seattle, but we naively figured we could just find a nice place once we got there. 

Obviously, everything went wrong. We barely had enough money for gas to get to Seattle, and what little we had left we had to spend on accommodations until we found a place to live. When we finally found a house to rent, the trailer was 2 or 3 days overdue, and we had no money to take it to Yakima, let alone to pay the late fees. I called the U-haul center in Seattle to explain the situation, but they weren’t sympathetic. They said I would have to forfeit my deposit, pay the drop-off fees and pay the overdue fees. I said that I had no money, but I would come drop the trailer off anyway. I braced myself for the worst.

We had moved into the house in Seattle on Saturday evening, so it was Sunday morning before I could take the trailer back. I didn’t like the idea of doing business on Sunday, especially business in which I would have to ask for leniency in my agreements. But I figured it would just be worse to wait until Monday, so I set off. I told my wife I would go face the music and be back as soon as I could. I had a map of Seattle on the seat beside me, and I set off to look for the U-haul center. 

I had gone a mile or so wrapped up in self-pitying thoughts of how stupid we were to move to Seattle with no money and no place to live. I was stopped at a traffic light when I became aware that the man beside me was honking at me. As I looked at him, he took a cigar out of his mouth and pointed across the street to a closed service station with U-haul trailers behind it. After I pulled into the service station behind him, he got out and said he was closed but I was in luck. He would just go ahead and take my trailer since he was in the area anyhow. I told him about being late and having agreed to take the trailer to Yakima. He looked at me, took the cigar out of his mouth again and said “I won’t tell if you won’t.” Then he gave me my $20 deposit.

I drove home dumfounded. When I got home, I showed my wife the $20 bill (which was what we needed to get through the next week), and told her that an angel smoking a cigar had given it to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here’s a 20 mark experience that I’m grateful for, but I’m not sure what to make of it, even 30 years later.</p>
<p>In 1979 we moved from Orem to Seattle for graduate school. I had no idea how much more expensive life would be in Seattle than Orem. Rent was triple, and gas was double (we moved right at the time of the Iranian revolution). We packed everything we had into an 8-foot U-haul, and to avoid drop-off fees, we rented the U-haul to Yakima instead of Seattle. We didn’t have housing lined up in Seattle, but we naively figured we could just find a nice place once we got there. </p>
<p>Obviously, everything went wrong. We barely had enough money for gas to get to Seattle, and what little we had left we had to spend on accommodations until we found a place to live. When we finally found a house to rent, the trailer was 2 or 3 days overdue, and we had no money to take it to Yakima, let alone to pay the late fees. I called the U-haul center in Seattle to explain the situation, but they weren’t sympathetic. They said I would have to forfeit my deposit, pay the drop-off fees and pay the overdue fees. I said that I had no money, but I would come drop the trailer off anyway. I braced myself for the worst.</p>
<p>We had moved into the house in Seattle on Saturday evening, so it was Sunday morning before I could take the trailer back. I didn’t like the idea of doing business on Sunday, especially business in which I would have to ask for leniency in my agreements. But I figured it would just be worse to wait until Monday, so I set off. I told my wife I would go face the music and be back as soon as I could. I had a map of Seattle on the seat beside me, and I set off to look for the U-haul center. </p>
<p>I had gone a mile or so wrapped up in self-pitying thoughts of how stupid we were to move to Seattle with no money and no place to live. I was stopped at a traffic light when I became aware that the man beside me was honking at me. As I looked at him, he took a cigar out of his mouth and pointed across the street to a closed service station with U-haul trailers behind it. After I pulled into the service station behind him, he got out and said he was closed but I was in luck. He would just go ahead and take my trailer since he was in the area anyhow. I told him about being late and having agreed to take the trailer to Yakima. He looked at me, took the cigar out of his mouth again and said “I won’t tell if you won’t.” Then he gave me my $20 deposit.</p>
<p>I drove home dumfounded. When I got home, I showed my wife the $20 bill (which was what we needed to get through the next week), and told her that an angel smoking a cigar had given it to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul S.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/01/twenty-mark-note-experiences/#comment-283662</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:29:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5336#comment-283662</guid>
		<description>Ray, 23, I think it comes down to malum se vs. malum prohibitum. Speed limits are largely malum prohibitum, wrong because an enforcement body (here a state or city government) has declared driving over 25 mph bad. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with driving over 25 mph (it may be bad at certain times, certainly, but nothing per se wrong about it). Whereas bribery is malum se. There is something intrinsically wrong about bribery. My argument above, simply parroting Noonan, is that it clogs the economic machine actually harming other actors within the economic market, every time it happens (not just under some circumstances). In this sense your earlier point about standards can confuse the issue. Morality is a standard but adultery did not cease to be adultery when the government got out of the business of enforcing it as a crime (malum se). Whereas speed limits do cease to be speed limits when not enforced (malum prohibitum). And I apologize that my earlier tone came across as offensive. It was a passive attempt at engaging in an off-topic discussion with you that struck me as very interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray, 23, I think it comes down to malum se vs. malum prohibitum. Speed limits are largely malum prohibitum, wrong because an enforcement body (here a state or city government) has declared driving over 25 mph bad. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with driving over 25 mph (it may be bad at certain times, certainly, but nothing per se wrong about it). Whereas bribery is malum se. There is something intrinsically wrong about bribery. My argument above, simply parroting Noonan, is that it clogs the economic machine actually harming other actors within the economic market, every time it happens (not just under some circumstances). In this sense your earlier point about standards can confuse the issue. Morality is a standard but adultery did not cease to be adultery when the government got out of the business of enforcing it as a crime (malum se). Whereas speed limits do cease to be speed limits when not enforced (malum prohibitum). And I apologize that my earlier tone came across as offensive. It was a passive attempt at engaging in an off-topic discussion with you that struck me as very interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/01/twenty-mark-note-experiences/#comment-283654</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 02:27:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5336#comment-283654</guid>
		<description>Paul, please direct the first part of your comment to almost everyone who has posted a comment on this thread.  (16 of the 20 comments before mine, as well, to be precise)  Thanks.  

Also, your point about the effect on the economy is totally irrelevant to the actual point of my post (since I never addressed the effect of unenforced bribes on the economy).  However, &quot;regardless of any relevance to (my comment)&quot;, your point is correct.  Much more irrelevant to the thread than mine, but correct, nonetheless.  Thanks for the additional commentary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul, please direct the first part of your comment to almost everyone who has posted a comment on this thread.  (16 of the 20 comments before mine, as well, to be precise)  Thanks.  </p>
<p>Also, your point about the effect on the economy is totally irrelevant to the actual point of my post (since I never addressed the effect of unenforced bribes on the economy).  However, &#8220;regardless of any relevance to (my comment)&#8221;, your point is correct.  Much more irrelevant to the thread than mine, but correct, nonetheless.  Thanks for the additional commentary.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul S</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/01/twenty-mark-note-experiences/#comment-283644</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:18:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5336#comment-283644</guid>
		<description>Ray, regardless of any relevance to this post, that is not technically true. Even without enforcement, bribes continue to be an economic drain on the government or market system by adding unintended transaction costs that lower efficiency. Noonan&#039;s masterpiece on the subject, a 500+ page book entitled simply (and very appropriately) Bribes spends a lot of time on this theory attempting, I think successfully, to debunk the view that without enforcement bribes cease to be bribes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray, regardless of any relevance to this post, that is not technically true. Even without enforcement, bribes continue to be an economic drain on the government or market system by adding unintended transaction costs that lower efficiency. Noonan&#8217;s masterpiece on the subject, a 500+ page book entitled simply (and very appropriately) Bribes spends a lot of time on this theory attempting, I think successfully, to debunk the view that without enforcement bribes cease to be bribes.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/01/twenty-mark-note-experiences/#comment-283632</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:12:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5336#comment-283632</guid>
		<description>When speed limits aren&#039;t enforced, they no longer function as &quot;speed limits&quot;.  &quot;Traveling&quot; (as defined in the rule book) is almost never called in the NBA, so taking an extra step is not traveling anymore.  It&#039;s just taking an extra step (or, according to Lebron James, a &quot;crab dribble&quot;).  The very definition has changed due to lack of enforcement.  When any standard is not enforced, standards don&#039;t exist.  

To echo Tatiana, as usual, when &quot;bribes&quot; become simply a matter of life (when everyone knows about them and nobody does anything about them), they become no more than a business practice and a normal business cost.  They cease to be &quot;bribes&quot;.  They only resurrect as bribes if enforcement begins again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When speed limits aren&#8217;t enforced, they no longer function as &#8220;speed limits&#8221;.  &#8220;Traveling&#8221; (as defined in the rule book) is almost never called in the NBA, so taking an extra step is not traveling anymore.  It&#8217;s just taking an extra step (or, according to Lebron James, a &#8220;crab dribble&#8221;).  The very definition has changed due to lack of enforcement.  When any standard is not enforced, standards don&#8217;t exist.  </p>
<p>To echo Tatiana, as usual, when &#8220;bribes&#8221; become simply a matter of life (when everyone knows about them and nobody does anything about them), they become no more than a business practice and a normal business cost.  They cease to be &#8220;bribes&#8221;.  They only resurrect as bribes if enforcement begins again.</p>
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		<title>By: bbell</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/01/twenty-mark-note-experiences/#comment-283621</link>
		<dc:creator>bbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 17:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5336#comment-283621</guid>
		<description>I can attest that the way to get Visa&#039;s processed quickly on my mission in Africa is meat.  Lamb, pork, beef, chicken, game.  It all worked pretty well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can attest that the way to get Visa&#8217;s processed quickly on my mission in Africa is meat.  Lamb, pork, beef, chicken, game.  It all worked pretty well.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter LLC</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/01/twenty-mark-note-experiences/#comment-283618</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter LLC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:53:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5336#comment-283618</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;the way we “bribe” waiters at restaurants to give us good service.&lt;/i&gt;

Actually, I think tipping has more to do with restaurant owners holding their patrons hostage in order to pay their employees wages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>the way we “bribe” waiters at restaurants to give us good service.</i></p>
<p>Actually, I think tipping has more to do with restaurant owners holding their patrons hostage in order to pay their employees wages.</p>
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		<title>By: Latter-day Guy</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2009/01/twenty-mark-note-experiences/#comment-283617</link>
		<dc:creator>Latter-day Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:33:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5336#comment-283617</guid>
		<description>I had a sibling who worked in the mission office in the Donetsk mission some years back. There was major palm greasing (even a little smuggling) that went on there. He can tell some pretty wild stories, but not of the stars-aligning-everything-working-out-perfectly variety.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a sibling who worked in the mission office in the Donetsk mission some years back. There was major palm greasing (even a little smuggling) that went on there. He can tell some pretty wild stories, but not of the stars-aligning-everything-working-out-perfectly variety.</p>
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