I don’t think you are annoying at all, just different minded. I also don’t think that everyone else finds the Atonement to be “simple and clear” to understand. If it was, it wouldn’t require so much faith, or gratitude for that matter. If it made perfect sense and seemed totally “just” we would probably view it as a “fair trade” of sorts and I don’t think that frame of mind honors and glorifies our Lord much, if at all. To me, the beauty and grace and condescending LOVE of the Savior is intensified because He chose to do it whether we deserved it or not, whether we could comprehend and appreciate it fully or not.

I read a theory the other day that I’m mentally chewing on, but haven’t really processed fully yet to say I find it truthful or not. In a nutshell, the idea is that because Christ is sinless, perfect, and completely innocent of all sin, when He willingly sacrificed both His life and His freedom from ever HAVING to experience the effects of “sin”-it literally “overcame” justice in some manner. In other words, because of the pure and undefiled MERCY of the Savior, and because He has the power necessary to actually repair, or make complete restitution for the damages caused by sin, Justice was rendered “void” or powerless to exact the PENALTIES for repented-for sins from Him for those covered by His Atonement. Because He can “save” and restore both the sinner AND the sinned against, there is no “balance” owed to satisfy perfect justice. Does that make sense?

Again, I’m not saying I agree with this theory, but I did find it interesting. It could mean that the suffering Christ experienced in Gethsemane could be as I stated above-the results of our actions upon others, the suffering of those sinned against, instead of suffering the “penalties” we would “owe” to Justice if we chose not to wrap our sins in the security of the Atonement. This theory allows for Christ to know the suffering of the innocent, as well as having felt and endured every physical and emotional mortal pain and disease etc (because those are a result of The Fall and we are innocent in that as well) AND for Him to “save” us from having to pay for our own sins after death. It also allows Him to escape having to suffer (needlessly or redundantly) for those who refuse to repent and must pay the price for their own sins themselves.

In my mind, it solves a lot of the “injustice” a lot of people feel regarding His suffering on our behalf. I believe that part of the Atonement could ONLY be done by Jesus Christ-because no other power existed to redeem us from mortality. If He didn’t conquer death and it’s affects, the plan would have been voided, and all of us would have been lost. So even though it may not seem fair, it was the only way the Father’s plan could be accomplished and I believe that Christ knew and accepted that BEFORE God the Father set His plan in motion. In a way, that would mean the reason we exist at all is because Christ agreed to His role in the first place. And it would have been “unjust” of Him to back out at the last moment or change His mind at some later point. I also believe that part of the Atonement was an act of personal, loving, pure mercy and grace-the part where He took our pains and fears and debts upon Himself and asks NOTHING in return except our love and faith and obedience. His perfect power AND perfect love is what makes the Atonement an act of glory and holiness.

Trying to understand the Atonement within the confines of mortal justice or mortal mercy or mortal comprehension is impossible. I don’t think we will truly understand it until the veil is lifted and we have all things restored to us. Thus, spending our lives trying to explain it or make it fit within a mold that satisfies mortal acceptance is an exercise in futility. We would have to fully comprehend infinity and eternity to accomplish such a task, and humans simply do not have that ability. God requires faith…even in accepting the Atonement. We humans want to rationalize everything, reason it out until all the nooks and crannies are exposed before we accept something as truth. It’s one of the hardest things to let go-and only by doing so can we ever hope to be exalted. Perfect faith is ultimately the ability to trust God and Christ with every fiber of our being, without having a perfect knowledge. Knowledge is the reward-faith is the key to that reward. We human beings tend to want it to be the other way around.

I realize that many, perhaps most, don’t care about these issues. They find a metaphor or an analogy that works for them and they find great power in that. Some of us are still searching and in the process, we probably tend to annoy those who for whom it all seems so simple and clear.

The key for us, I believe, is taking that basic idea (of truly casting our burdens upon the Lord) and finding a way for that to resonate with us. If that means someone believes He actually suffered every exact pain and sin she does, great; if someone else believes He suffered extreme representative pain (the worst of every type of pain), great; if someone else believes it all is figurative (that Jesus’ sinless suffering typified pure obedience and submission regardless of the actual pain), great. All I care about at the most fundamental level is that I accept Him as the Lord and Savior and Redeemer – that whatever He did, it covers my sins and imperfection and allows me to pursue growth and eventual perfection. I care FAR more about what we take from it than the actual mechanics of the event.

I don’t know if that helps at all, but it’s what hit me when I read your comment.

Sean (#51), I love that verse for the same reasons.

quin, THANK YOU.

I don’t know. I’d say the next part of the quote, “He suffered pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind” confirms that Christ had sufficient experience to fully understand *any* pain, affliction, temptation we have been through. Whether he literally lived through each moment of my life isn’t terribly important to me. That he actually, completely understands where I’ve been means more to me than I can say. Whatever it took to get him to that place, I’m eternally grateful that he was willing.

My thoughts have been on this topic all day and I agree with you on several things to some degree.

First, Christ suffered for our sins-hangnails and lost school elections are not sins. I am not 100% bound to the idea that Christ “experienced” every moment of my life in Gethsemane, and I don’t see a need for Him to do so at that particular moment in time either. I believe that He can see the daily events of my life or yours now anytime He needs to, so I agree that it makes no sense to conclude that Christ “lived” every single moment of our individual lives on the last day of His mortality.

Dread, sadness, pain, suffering, loneliness, hunger, shame, rejection, sorrow…all of those emotions Christ suffered before and after Gethsemane…He knows them all intimately-and on a deeper level than any of us ever could. I don’t need Him to feel “MY” sadness, pain, hunger etc to believe that He understands my pain. His personal experiences trump all of mine and I am humbled and in awe that He would still come to my aid and comfort when He endured so much more than I am required to.

Second, the gospel tells us that murderers do not receive forgiveness in this world, nor the world to come. Did Christ suffer for murderers? There’s no way to know. I see absolutely no justice in requiring our perfect and innocent Lord to suffer for those who will later suffer again for the same sins.

To me, the idea of “descending below them all” means no matter what I may suffer in this life, He has endured the deepest pain possible, the fiercest hunger that exists, the darkest evil etc. If I personally experience a trial that is unique to only me and thus no one else has ever felt that way, then He experienced that too.

I also had another thought. “Restitution and/or restoration” are a part of forgiveness (look it up) and there are so many sins that we commit that we are powerless to fully restore or make restitution for. I believe that part of the agony He suffered during the Atonement was absorbing the physical and emotional scars of those we injure through sin. Christ alone can “heal” us all, make us whole again-He takes our burdens and the wounds in our bodies and souls and fills them up again. He makes repairs what was damaged. He restores what existed before.

When we say “He suffered for our sins”- we often think in terms of “Action X= Punishment Z”.
Or in other words…if I commit action “X”, then I deserve punishment “Z”-and we imagine that Christ suffered “punishment Z” for me, so that if I repent, I wouldn’t have to. But what if we’re looking at it wrong? What if “Action X=damage Z” instead? Bare with me here…putting it into words is proving more difficult than I’d hoped.

Let’s say I abuse a child. (Not that I have or ever would, but rather than pointing at another, I will make myself the example here.) Action X (the abuse)= damage Z-emotional wreckage, physical pain, fear, bitterness etc. I fervently and completely repent for my actions to the best of my ability, but I am POWERLESS to restore that child’s emotional health, erase the physical pain, fear, and bitterness that my actions caused. I simply cannot do it. But Christ CAN. At some point in time, Christ can and will “heal” that child (and later adult) that I wounded. (Forgiveness on the part of my victim enters the picture here too, but this discussion is deep enough!)

So…when we say that “Christ suffered for my sins (of child abuse)” it could also mean that in Gethsemane He felt what that child felt during my abuse, so He would know exactly and specifically how to heal that child. He is able to make a full restitution that I am incapable of making, and while I am made to feel guilty and horrible and agonize over my actions during the process of mortal repentance, at some point in the future, that child/person will be made whole and what I damaged will be restored.

For me, this idea opened up a whole new view of the Atonement for me and makes perfect sense if it is accurate. The victim of my actions really WOULD be able to find comfort in the Savior’s atonement because He really would have suffered exactly what they had endured and have a perfect knowledge of their suffering. But, it also means that my Savior might not just have felt “pain” or “punishment” because of my sins (Punishment Z). He might have suffered “Damage Z” (the effects and feelings and sensations of child abuse) because of me.

Maybe these thoughts are old news to you and others, and maybe I’m not expressing them very well in this venue, but rather than trivializing the Atonement (as you suggested) by insinuating that Christ endured my every stubbed toe and hangnail in order for his Atonement to be “personal and individual” to me, it made the Atonement humbling and horrific and amazingly personal to imagine causing my Lord and Savior to suffer as if I had committed my sins TO Him and ON Him and TOWARDS Him instead of myself and others…