Comments on: The Slaughter of the Innocents http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/12/the-slaughter-of-the-innocents/ Truth Will Prevail Fri, 25 May 2012 03:45:22 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Pippin http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/12/the-slaughter-of-the-innocents/#comment-281965 Pippin Sat, 27 Dec 2008 21:28:24 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5068#comment-281965 Oops! I just noticed that Kari already commented on the National Geographic article. Sorry to be repetitive. Oops! I just noticed that Kari already commented on the National Geographic article. Sorry to be repetitive.

]]> By: Pippin http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/12/the-slaughter-of-the-innocents/#comment-281964 Pippin Sat, 27 Dec 2008 21:26:51 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5068#comment-281964 National Geographic magazine published an article about Herod in December 2008 in which the author, Tom Mueller, says Herod is "almost certainly innocent of this crime", referring to the slaughter of the infants, "of which there is no report apart from Matthew's account. But children he certainly slew, including three of his own sons, along with his wife, his mother-in-law, and numerous other members of his court. Throughout his life, he blended creativity and cruelty, harmony and chaos, in ways that challenge the modern imagination." It's an interesting article if anyone wants to know more about Herod than just the caricature most of us have carried in our minds since our childhood. I also seem to need one good emotional breakdown during the Christmas season. I have never figured out why. Maybe it's because the world is filled with a blend of "creativity and cruelty, harmony and chaos". National Geographic magazine published an article about Herod in December 2008 in which the author, Tom Mueller, says Herod is “almost certainly innocent of this crime”, referring to the slaughter of the infants, “of which there is no report apart from Matthew’s account. But children he certainly slew, including three of his own sons, along with his wife, his mother-in-law, and numerous other members of his court. Throughout his life, he blended creativity and cruelty, harmony and chaos, in ways that challenge the modern imagination.” It’s an interesting article if anyone wants to know more about Herod than just the caricature most of us have carried in our minds since our childhood.
I also seem to need one good emotional breakdown during the Christmas season. I have never figured out why. Maybe it’s because the world is filled with a blend of “creativity and cruelty, harmony and chaos”.

]]> By: Kari http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/12/the-slaughter-of-the-innocents/#comment-281742 Kari Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:46:46 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5068#comment-281742 It wasn't meant to be a snark, Adam. All I meant to say was that if a prophet has taught, in what is still an official Church publication, that our current dating is correct, and Jesus was born in 1 AD (although I will correct my original statement, Talmage actually states Christ was born in 1 BC), how can we believe that the account in Matthew (and nowhere else as Kevin Barney points out) is factual? Maybe the only meaning of the story is that Matthew wanted to make the rulers of Judea into the worst characters he could because it fits his narrative theme that Jesus is the rightful heir of the throne of David. Demonizing those you want to overthrow is a time-honored tradition of revolution. It wasn’t meant to be a snark, Adam.

All I meant to say was that if a prophet has taught, in what is still an official Church publication, that our current dating is correct, and Jesus was born in 1 AD (although I will correct my original statement, Talmage actually states Christ was born in 1 BC), how can we believe that the account in Matthew (and nowhere else as Kevin Barney points out) is factual?

Maybe the only meaning of the story is that Matthew wanted to make the rulers of Judea into the worst characters he could because it fits his narrative theme that Jesus is the rightful heir of the throne of David. Demonizing those you want to overthrow is a time-honored tradition of revolution.

]]> By: Adam Greenwood http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/12/the-slaughter-of-the-innocents/#comment-281740 Adam Greenwood Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:07:58 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5068#comment-281740 Drive-by Talmage snark. Yo. Drive-by Talmage snark. Yo.

]]> By: Kari http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/12/the-slaughter-of-the-innocents/#comment-281738 Kari Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:46:51 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5068#comment-281738 <i>The other take is that that is an argument from silence, such a slaughter is absolutely in character for what we know of Herod, and Bethlehem was small and insignificant enough that there is no reason to assume this should be found in Josephus (the main place one might look for external confirmation).</i> Interesting. I'm wondering how this actually happened as Herod died in 4 B.C. and Christ was born in 1 A.D. (according to Talmadge). <i>It appears that Herod was a very poor Governor based on what we “know” from Roman history.</i> You should check out December's National Geographic <a href="http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/12/herod/mueller-text" rel="nofollow">article about Herod</a>. It is fascinating, yet brief, and certainly gives the impression that he was anything but a poor governor from the Romans' perspective. The other take is that that is an argument from silence, such a slaughter is absolutely in character for what we know of Herod, and Bethlehem was small and insignificant enough that there is no reason to assume this should be found in Josephus (the main place one might look for external confirmation).

Interesting. I’m wondering how this actually happened as Herod died in 4 B.C. and Christ was born in 1 A.D. (according to Talmadge).

It appears that Herod was a very poor Governor based on what we “know” from Roman history.

You should check out December’s National Geographic article about Herod. It is fascinating, yet brief, and certainly gives the impression that he was anything but a poor governor from the Romans’ perspective.

]]> By: Adam Greenwood http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/12/the-slaughter-of-the-innocents/#comment-281723 Adam Greenwood Tue, 23 Dec 2008 12:09:15 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5068#comment-281723 Great comments all. I especially appreciate the insight that the slaughter of the innocents points to Christ being the 'Lamb slain from the foundation of the world,' born to die in innocence. Great comments all. I especially appreciate the insight that the slaughter of the innocents points to Christ being the ‘Lamb slain from the foundation of the world,’ born to die in innocence.

]]> By: Jack http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/12/the-slaughter-of-the-innocents/#comment-281712 Jack Tue, 23 Dec 2008 05:10:09 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5068#comment-281712 The slaughter of the children of Bethlehem intensifies the meaning and depth of God's condescension. It is a foreshadowing of the Savior's death--in that he would die innocently at the hands of murderers who take away his precious life to secure their own power as they suppose. In the same way that we would mourn the deaths of those sweet little souls who did nothing to merit such barbarous cruelty from their oppressors we, perhaps, ought to mourn the death and suffering of Lamb of God who from his infancy until his physical demise would maintain his innocence crying "Abba Father" all his days. The slaughter of the children of Bethlehem intensifies the meaning and depth of God’s condescension. It is a foreshadowing of the Savior’s death–in that he would die innocently at the hands of murderers who take away his precious life to secure their own power as they suppose. In the same way that we would mourn the deaths of those sweet little souls who did nothing to merit such barbarous cruelty from their oppressors we, perhaps, ought to mourn the death and suffering of Lamb of God who from his infancy until his physical demise would maintain his innocence crying “Abba Father” all his days.

]]> By: Jim Donaldson http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/12/the-slaughter-of-the-innocents/#comment-281710 Jim Donaldson Tue, 23 Dec 2008 04:36:49 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5068#comment-281710 I'm not sure that the slaughter was confined to Bethlehem. There are those verses (Matthew 23:35/Luke 11:51) where Jesus late in his ministry talks about the death of Zacharias, the father of John Baptist, who was murdered in Jerusalem (between the temple and the altar). Joseph Smith taught (in the, uh, original T & S, 9/1/1842) that Zac was killed for refusing to disclose to Herod's henchmen the location where Elizabeth was hiding the baby John, but I don't think that Zac and Elizabeth were living in Bethlehem at that point (if they ever were), they were in Jerusalem because Zac was the officiating high priest that year. So the net might well have been cast all over Jerusalem, not just Bethlehem, quite a bit bigger city. Historicity aside. One other point: it would have been important, I think, to Matthew to draw the parallel between the Toddler Death Sentence imposed at the time of Moses' birth and that of Jesus. Matthew turns over every rock looking for prophecies and parallels. And that might be the explanation for the inclusion of the story there, but nowhere else. I’m not sure that the slaughter was confined to Bethlehem. There are those verses (Matthew 23:35/Luke 11:51) where Jesus late in his ministry talks about the death of Zacharias, the father of John Baptist, who was murdered in Jerusalem (between the temple and the altar). Joseph Smith taught (in the, uh, original T & S, 9/1/1842) that Zac was killed for refusing to disclose to Herod’s henchmen the location where Elizabeth was hiding the baby John, but I don’t think that Zac and Elizabeth were living in Bethlehem at that point (if they ever were), they were in Jerusalem because Zac was the officiating high priest that year. So the net might well have been cast all over Jerusalem, not just Bethlehem, quite a bit bigger city. Historicity aside.

One other point: it would have been important, I think, to Matthew to draw the parallel between the Toddler Death Sentence imposed at the time of Moses’ birth and that of Jesus. Matthew turns over every rock looking for prophecies and parallels. And that might be the explanation for the inclusion of the story there, but nowhere else.

]]> By: SC Taysom http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/12/the-slaughter-of-the-innocents/#comment-281706 SC Taysom Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:13:26 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5068#comment-281706 In one sense, Christmas is simply the opening of a mortal story that, by its end, is literally drenched in the blood of the innocent. So in that sense, the narrative device (historically accurate or not) prefigures an elemental aspect of Christ's mission. This entire topic also brings to mind one of my favorite Christmas hymns, "We Three Kings of Orient Are," and the infrequently sung verses describing each of the three gifts. I am thinking specifically of this one: Myrrh is mine, its bitter perfume Breathes of life of gathering gloom Sorrowing, sighing, bleeding, dying Sealed in the stone-cold tomb [Ed. - great point, and great hymnody. Thanks.] In one sense, Christmas is simply the opening of a mortal story that, by its end, is literally drenched in the blood of the innocent. So in that sense, the narrative device (historically accurate or not) prefigures an elemental aspect of Christ’s mission. This entire topic also brings to mind one of my favorite Christmas hymns, “We Three Kings of Orient Are,” and the infrequently sung verses describing each of the three gifts. I am thinking specifically of this one:

Myrrh is mine, its bitter perfume
Breathes of life of gathering gloom
Sorrowing, sighing, bleeding, dying
Sealed in the stone-cold tomb

[Ed. - great point, and great hymnody. Thanks.]

]]> By: Ray http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/12/the-slaughter-of-the-innocents/#comment-281701 Ray Tue, 23 Dec 2008 02:40:08 +0000 http://timesandseasons.org/?p=5068#comment-281701 Brad wrote a beautiful post last year about this topic on that other blog that must not be named. It has lingered with me as much as any post I have read at any time. Rather than try to summarize it, here is the link: http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/thoughts-on-the-meaning-of-the-birth-of-jesus/ Ronan's comment #3 struck me when I read it for the first time, and I used it yesterday as the basis for my Sac. Mtg. talk on the lesson of Christmas for our time. Brad wrote a beautiful post last year about this topic on that other blog that must not be named. It has lingered with me as much as any post I have read at any time. Rather than try to summarize it, here is the link:

http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/thoughts-on-the-meaning-of-the-birth-of-jesus/

Ronan’s comment #3 struck me when I read it for the first time, and I used it yesterday as the basis for my Sac. Mtg. talk on the lesson of Christmas for our time.

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