Comments on: Just Say No (to members)

By: Amanda

Amanda — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 22:11:04 +0000

Additional thought. I think it is a grievous mistake to think that making your own decisions and setting your own lines is an “implicit judgment” of someone else. I attend grad school, and at every event we have, alcohol is provided. When I choose the San Peligrino, I do not see it as a judgment of my cohorts who choose the wine–it is simply my own decision. Each decision everyone makes is laden with so many environmental and individual factors that our lines are simply different. If you operate under the paradigm that you simply cannot understand everything that went into another’s decision, then making your own will not be a judgment of them. But I still stand by what I said earlier that it seems like a big problem that this FHE situation was entirely your dilemma and not your daughter’s. Where does her agency fall into this equation? If you have taught her right, which I’m sure you have, then it seems that this would be a perfect time to let her figure out how to set her own lines when others “test” them.

By: Amanda

Amanda — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 22:04:07 +0000

Umm, have you considered allowing your daughter to answer for herself? If she is babysitting, then it would seem that she is at an age where she can a) decide what to do and b) figure out how to address the person confronting her with this little dilemma. Also, might you have considered that this person in the ward had a one-time emergency come up and was desperate for help? I don\’t think it is fair to immediately assumed that this person is asking you to lower your morals. Remember that Jesus healed on the Sabbath. Perhaps you daughter could be doing a greater service that fulfills a higher law. Let her figure out the situation. Why is this your dilemma? When I was growing up, we would hold family nights on whatever night worked best–sometimes we even held family night two or three times a week, because it just worked out so well that week. Remember that guidelines can always be reworked and reshaped to fit families and individuals.

By: Kylie Turley

Kylie Turley — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 17:01:28 +0000

Thanks Steve Evans for doing the survey. Latest count = we’re tied. I guess it’s a good thing we never decided what one won if one won.

By: Kylie Turley

Kylie Turley — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 16:57:32 +0000

jks–thanks. Ever since whoever it was suggested that my daughter should decide, I’ve been thinking down the exact same lines. What would I want/expect my daughter to say? Well obviously I should be an example of that, myself. The interesting thing is that the woman asked for me and then asked if my daughter could babysit. So, while it’s great advice (letting my daughter make her own choices), the situation was such that I had to decide.

Katie, of course you’re right. I am totally over-thinking it. But it has been fun to talk about with all of you! And I thought the little survey at By Common Consent was fascinating.

By: Katie

Katie — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 15:05:45 +0000

Growing up outside of Utah helped me to define my values because most of my friends were not members of the church. At the same time, it also helped me realize that different members have different ideas of where to draw the line. All the time I saw other kids doing things I knew were definitely not okay, yet see those same kids treated like pillars of righteousness by leaders who either didn’t know about their behavior or who didn’t care. For a while as a teenager this was a major problem for me, and for a while I turned into a self-righteous goody two-shoes who ended up just alienating everyone else and doing more harm than good. Then, I got over it.

Since then, I figure what everybody does is their own business. What matters is that I am living the way I believe I should. It is sooo much more important to just be friends to everyone and to support each other in a not-judging-at-all kind of way. If they are “sinning” then it’s their problem, and when I make it my problem I’m the one who’s sinning.

I think you are way overthinking this thing. You should just have said, “That would interfere with our FHE plans, maybe another night?” Then give her the benefit of the doubt – maybe she has FHE on Sunday, maybe they have a short FHE earlier in the evening, and even if they don’t it isn’t really any of your business.

By: jks

jks — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 06:29:36 +0000

Kylie,
If your child is old enough to babysit, she should be old enough to potentially accept or decline a job. What are her choices? What would she say?
1. Let me ask my mom. I’m sorry she says I can’t tonight.
2. Let me ask my mom. I’m sorry I’m not available.
3. Let me ask my mom. She says I can’t babysit on Mondays.
4. Let me ask my mom. She says we are having FHE. Sorry.
5. Actually I”m not allowed to babysit on Mondays.
6. Sorry I’m not available tonight/Monday. I have too many things going on.\
7. We usually do family things on Monday nights, so I’m not available then.
What would you tell her if the woman called and spoke to your child and then she was the one asking if she could babysit? What would you want her to say about your family’s values/plans? What would she be comfortable saying? Use that as a guide. There might be years of her babysitting and you might as well establish guidelines. It is ok for her clients to know these rules and guidelines.

By: Left Field

Left Field — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 02:12:06 +0000

One autumn evening during the World Series, and two months after my wife and I were married, the bishop called and asked if we could meet with him the following evening. Ain’t nothing comes between me and the Fall Classic. I just told him I wasn’t available that day and suggested a more appropriate day. It didn’t make sense for me to go to the interview and resent it, and I didn’t see any reason to explain myself. My wife was surprised at how easy it was to say no if you don’t have to explain.

By: Kylie Turley

Kylie Turley — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 18:46:13 +0000

Juliann 57–good advice. Obviously this was difficult for me to negotiate and it would have been hard for my daughter, too–but a great learning experience!

Thanks for the laugh, Alison. You know, I was about to write something more about the pleasures of kissing, but I think I’ll just let it be. You probably don’t need any more personal information about me than you already have!

Interesting experience, Sarah. I can relate in some ways. We weren’t homeschooled but we did spend a lot of time together. I guess FHE could have seemed artificial, except that most of the rest of our time together was working or recreation. So one formal lesson time didn’t seem out of line. I think because my parents did it from the get-go, we were brainwashed. It never occurred to me to have a bad attitude or refuse to participate or anything like that because FHE was just what we had always done. And I think it’s great that you have no trouble with personal boundaries. I hope that quality isn’t as rare as I think it is!

By: Sarah

Sarah — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 15:29:09 +0000

My family was atrocious about Family Home Evening – we homeschooled, so my sisters and mom and I were literally together learning, often about churchy stuff, easily six hours a day. Later when I was in college, my sister and I would sit at home together on a Saturday, talking about churchy stuff all day long, and then get into a conversation about how our family is a bunch of heathens for not doing FHE. Even when we were 100%-tithing, no-shopping-on-Sundays, lets-buy-caffeine-free-Coke type Mormons (it comes and goes with us, especially since we’re sufficient introverts that church usually feels like torture even when we’d actually be willing to spend all day Sunday reading the Ensign and watching old General Conference videos) we never really did FHE. We’d can food together or sew quilts together or read scriptures together (my mom taught Seminary to just my sister and some kids who never showed up) but never, ever FHE. I think it was the artificialness of the whole exercise. I’m rather confident that when I have kids, they’ll be available for babysitting on Mondays.

Having said that? I don’t think a single one of my family members would ask another Mormon to babysit on Monday, except if they were known to be in an FHE-on-some-other-day family. Good grief, half of my family has taught in Primary; we know the song. Maybe if it was 1945 and no one knew about FHE and no one quite stuck it on a particular day (like coffee in 1870.) But come on, we’re Mormons, it’s 2008, we know this stuff. Same goes with all the other “Mormons don’t” things — we all know where the lines are.

(For the record, my personal boundaries are such that I have no trouble saying “AAAAK, DON’T DO THAT!!” to boyfriends regardless of religious affiliation. But, I’m really bad about actually managing to date LDS guys. I am so not a celestial person.)

By: Alison Moore Smith

Alison Moore Smith — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 08:58:01 +0000

I echo #2. When I say “no” I don’t justify it for anyone else. It’s no one’s business WHY I choose not to do something.

But if you WANT to justify it, you could do what I tell the audiences in my speeches to say, “I’m sorry. I have an appointment.” If that appointment is FHE or date night or a bubble bath or with your pillow makes no difference. YOU set the priorities for your life, not your neighbor.

Once, in 1995, I actually called a YW in the ward to baby sit on a Monday night. It was our 10th anniversary and all our kids were still young. I called the BISHOP’s wife, told her I knew it was FHE, but asked if there was any chance of her kids babysitting. She thought it was a good reason to ask for a babysitter on Monday and consented. I was grateful.

As for BYU shock, I grew up mostly in Orem and my shock was going to BYU and having RM’s constantly “trying stuff.” My reaction was, “What’s wrong with ME that they are doing this?” It took me a good long time to figure out it was THEM.

But if my LDS date wants to french kiss and I think that itâ€™s immoral (so I say no), then how is it possible to avoid implicitly judging his standards?

First, totally go for the french kiss. Then realize it’s not immoral, it’s awesome. Then you avoid that judging problem all together.

Hmmm. Maybe it was meâ€¦