Section 49 addresses the Shakers’ strict prohibition of pork — another extreme position that was struck down by God. I am not a vegetarian, neither did I ever advocate that position. And yet, after decrying the prohibition of meat, we read clearly in verse 21 that too much meat is bad.

D&C 49:21 “And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.”

Section 59 is about sacraments and fasting and thanksgiving and the joy we can find in all the great abundance God has given us. Yet again, after pointing out that everything is for man’s use, in verse 20 we are told do be wise and moderate in our use of these things.

D&C 59:20 “And it pleaseth God that he hath given all these things unto man; for unto this end were they made to be used, with judgment, not to excess, neither by extortion.”

Neither of those sections are part of the Word of Wisdom (Section 89), which is the official health code of the Church, and which spells out most clearly of all that meat should be eaten sparingly. But that doesn’t even matter because both of them agree with the “eat meat sparingly” principle anyway! God is not contradicting himself.

I like Researcher’s comment (99) most of all. Cheap, processed “food products” are not any better than any other officially restricted item on the list. As I like to put it, “real food does not come in a box!”

To clarify once more: meat is okay if used sparingly, not excessively, and needfully. God said so — in three different sections (thanks for pointing them out!). Also, real grains and fruits and vegetables (not manufactured “food products”) should be the basis of our diet. The fewer the ingredients on the label (and the easier to pronounce), the better.

In the Church and out, I generally see an overblown lust for meat. I never claimed evidence of a majority, I simply offered a few recent examples as an illustration of the problem (I have plenty more examples, and it sounds like others do, too). In the end, I think we’re agreeing vociferously.

I apologize again for the threadjack, but did you really expect a debate on the finer points of the Word of Wisdom to stay on topic?

Jon

When it comes down to it, many Americans eat a poor diet, heavy in processed foods, trans fats, saturated fats, sugars, etc. Have you ever looked at the label on a jar of peanut butter? This “health food” is almost as much shortening and sugar as it is peanut.

The price of all these cream-of-mushroom casseroles, baked goods, kool-aid, soda, “fruit” snacks, packaged cookies, and trips to the drive-through:

*gall bladder disease,
*diabetes,
*various diet-related cancers,
*heart disease.

It’s nothing that a little green tea will fix. It also can’t be fixed by eating more meat. It takes the brave and drastic step of cutting out cheap processed foods and moving to the wide and wonderful variety of healthy and fairly inexpensive ethnic diets.

What a blessing to live in a time where we have so much choice and what a tragedy to sit and parse through the different kinds of teas and what is or isn’t good for our bodies and spirits and then go eat a couple of bowls of sugar puffs.

18 And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;
19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

(Not to mention what the Lord says in section 59)

I’m NOT advocating the practice of being a full time “meat-o-vore” by any means, and my second comment speaks to treating our bodies with respect and proper diet. I am pointing out that once you start arguing the finest points, someone is bound to point out that verse 19 above seems to encourage wearing leather and fur as well as eating things ABUNDANTLY, and that in some places in the civilized world, “times of winter and cold” are 6+ months of the year. (after all, the Lord says times OF cold OR winter OR famine) Neither extreme is correct according to God, and at the root of God’s wishes is that we acknowledge the bounty we have been given and use it with gratitude and wisdom.

Jonovitch, your assumption still seems to be that the majority of LDS members are exactly like your bishop or your neighbor, which I think is incorrect and rather insulting. My point is that in light of the fact that many members have large families and small budgets, most of the “average” people I know eat a lot of casseroles, pasta, etc and “Mothers Who Know” usually carry the scent of peanut butter everywhere they go. Meat is expensive and it has been my experience that most families usually stretch their “meat flavored” main dishes with other things. For example, I cannot remember even one time when a meal brought into my family by LDS ward members included steak, ribs, pork chops, or even whole pieces of chicken…seriously, and none of the hundreds of meals I’ve taken to others contained such “luxuries” either.

Your experience may be different than mine, but that doesn’t automatically equate with conclusive evidence that a majority of good and faithful Mormons are ignoring the advice given to us by the Creator.

Ten billion animals are slaughtered every year for meat in the USA. That’s not a typo. One year, one country, 10 *billion* sacrifices to the god of meat. We are a nation of meat guzzlers, and Mormons are not any better than the rest.

My bishop just got five (count em: five!) drug-eluting stents placed in and around his heart. He is (or rather, he was) a meat-a-vore. Another man in my ward is vocal about his love for meat. He’s quite large, and I sincerely fear for his health. My personal opinion is that he’s not correctly practicing the word of wisdom (but again, I’d never dare to hold my standard against him in any way that counted), and I hesitantly mention it only because of the semi-anonymity here of me and especially of him.

Yet another friend in the ward has said that animals are “filling the measure of their creation” by being eaten by us. I might buy that argument if the cows we consume actually grazed on grass as nature intended, rather than on corn-and-brains-meal while being confined to a industrial complex and pumped full of antacids, antibiotics, and hormones for the duration of their sorry shell of an existence. Furthermore, most chickens never see the outside of their one-square meter cage (which happens to be occupied by three or four other chickens) while being similarly subjected to unreal doses of hormones and antibiotics.

Unfortunately, as more nations around the world become “modernized” they demand more meat, too. I really don’t think God intended us to grow meat to the tune of billions of carcasses per annum. And I really do think he was serious about eating meat sparingly, **as he clearly stated,** and only in times of winter, or cold, or famine (i.e., when our grains — you know, “the staff of life” — are having a hard time growing out of the ground).

Yes, I do bring this up whenever a Word of Wisdom lesson is introduced (because it’s usually completely disregarded as irrelevant), and yes, I think too many of us otherwise good and faithful Mormons are selectively ignoring clear, plain, simple advice given to us by the Creator of all things.

Here’s a bit of unsolicited advice from me: try preparing your next dinnertime meal using a little meat as a garnish or a flavor enhancer, rather than the main dish. You might feel a little better about yourself (maybe), and you might realize you’re not missing out on much by gulping down large amounts of another animal’s artificially enhanced muscle tissue.

But this thread is about tea. (I told you I was ready for this debate.) End of threadjack.

Jon

I’m not sure what you mean by the “eat meat sparingly” part of the WOW not being part of the official practice list, because I’ve never heard the First Presidency or other apostles encourage members to eat meat at every meal or to overly indulge in the practice,nor have I witnessed endless numbers of LDS members engaging in meat orgies regularly. We don’t eat meat at every meal in our house but we are not vegans either. The Lord says in D&C 49 that He ordained beasts and fowl as food for man and as far as I can tell, most of my LDS neighbors eat in a manner similar to ours.

When we treat our bodies with respect and dignity even in diet, we obtain the promised blessings of hidden treasures of knowledge and strength and when we don’t-we lose. Oddly, the promise of being spared by the destroying angel is rarely mentioned in WOW discussions.

(the other quin)

Besides this obvious and generally accepted fact, I defer to Researcher’s comment (48) which clearly tri-furcates the main plant-sources of caffeine as “strengst verboten!,” “kinda sorta, but not on Sundays” and “come on now, everybody knows that chocolate doesn’t count.”

Jon

…the principle is to consume what is healthy and avoid what is not.

…the official practice relates to coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco, and illicit drugs.

…the personal preferences involve Coke, energy drinks, Yerba Mate, Caro/Pero coffee, peppermint tea, green Jell-O, sugar, corn syrup, sodium benzoate, red meat, etc. (Personally, I try to avoid all of these as I do my best to stay true to the overarching principle. As an aside, I personally find it unfortunate that “eat meat sparingly” is not part of the “official practice” list. But that’s another debate [which I am so ready for, by the way.])

We can and should teach each other about the principles and practices of the Church, but my personal preferences cannot and should not be imposed on others. I can share examples of “what would Jon do?” in certain situations, but we must not elevate our personal preferences to be the standard for everyone else.

Jon