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	<title>Comments on: Revelation 2:1-11</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/revelation-21-11/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Researcher</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/revelation-21-11/#comment-269787</link>
		<dc:creator>Researcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 19:14:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I was just wondering the same thing the other day. I&#039;ll be looking forward to the new installment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was just wondering the same thing the other day. I&#8217;ll be looking forward to the new installment.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie M. Smith</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/revelation-21-11/#comment-269785</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie M. Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 18:51:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;ll try to get one up this weekend, Ardis.  Thanks for reminding me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll try to get one up this weekend, Ardis.  Thanks for reminding me.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis Parshall</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/revelation-21-11/#comment-269773</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4599#comment-269773</guid>
		<description>Julie, I&#039;m eager for more. Will you be continuing this series when you have a moment or ten?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julie, I&#8217;m eager for more. Will you be continuing this series when you have a moment or ten?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Julie M. Smith</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/revelation-21-11/#comment-267945</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie M. Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4599#comment-267945</guid>
		<description>Gerald, there are definitely other congregations in other parts of the world at this time; these seven are all in Asia Minor.  And we know that there were even other congregations in Asia Minor, such as Galatia, because they had other letters sent to them.  (Unless you postulate that a congregation existed in Galatia when Paul wrote that didn&#039;t exist when the Revelator wrote . . . )  Why John picked these seven, I have no idea.  Good question, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gerald, there are definitely other congregations in other parts of the world at this time; these seven are all in Asia Minor.  And we know that there were even other congregations in Asia Minor, such as Galatia, because they had other letters sent to them.  (Unless you postulate that a congregation existed in Galatia when Paul wrote that didn&#8217;t exist when the Revelator wrote . . . )  Why John picked these seven, I have no idea.  Good question, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Gerald Smith</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/revelation-21-11/#comment-267943</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerald Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:06:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4599#comment-267943</guid>
		<description>Julie, Thanks for the great concepts.

Do you think there\&#039;s a reason why there are only 7 churches?  Had Paul\&#039;s missionary journeys not had better response than to only have 7 churches for the Lord to talk to?  Or perhaps of all the churches founded, there were only 7 left that would accept John as apostle and leader of the church (of which, even some of these had major righteousness issues)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julie, Thanks for the great concepts.</p>
<p>Do you think there\&#8217;s a reason why there are only 7 churches?  Had Paul\&#8217;s missionary journeys not had better response than to only have 7 churches for the Lord to talk to?  Or perhaps of all the churches founded, there were only 7 left that would accept John as apostle and leader of the church (of which, even some of these had major righteousness issues)?</p>
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		<title>By: Julie M. Smith</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/revelation-21-11/#comment-267887</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie M. Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4599#comment-267887</guid>
		<description>Raymond, I appreciate your unwillingness to discuss this in terms that wouldn&#039;t be appropriate on a blog.  I think the &quot;labeling that they contain a hidden meaning&quot; is the strongest part of your argument.  I do think, though, that after I have posted on all the letters, you will see that certain phrases that scream &quot;TEMPLE!&quot; to the endowed could have easily and simply been understood by any random person in the first century. 

As far as ch4, I don&#039;t think seeing it as &quot;entering the celestial kingdom&quot; is as useful as seeing it as &quot;another entry in a long line of scenes where a visionary is commissioned in the presence of God.&quot;  But more on that later . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Raymond, I appreciate your unwillingness to discuss this in terms that wouldn&#8217;t be appropriate on a blog.  I think the &#8220;labeling that they contain a hidden meaning&#8221; is the strongest part of your argument.  I do think, though, that after I have posted on all the letters, you will see that certain phrases that scream &#8220;TEMPLE!&#8221; to the endowed could have easily and simply been understood by any random person in the first century. </p>
<p>As far as ch4, I don&#8217;t think seeing it as &#8220;entering the celestial kingdom&#8221; is as useful as seeing it as &#8220;another entry in a long line of scenes where a visionary is commissioned in the presence of God.&#8221;  But more on that later . . .</p>
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		<title>By: Raymond Takashi Swenson</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/revelation-21-11/#comment-267883</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond Takashi Swenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 20:38:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4599#comment-267883</guid>
		<description>Given the public nature of this venue, I hesitate to go into much more detail about the correspondences I think are there in the language of the promises.  The tree of life is definitely tied to the Garden of Eden, which is properly at the beginning.  As you note, the Endowment has been modified in our own lifetimes, so we don&#039;t know the particulars of how it was taught in the First Century, and can only find correlations that suggest this is a possibility.  Because the baseline information in the endowment would not be publishable, it is a hypothesis that could not be offered and critiqued and refined in an academic forum.  

The notion about the purpose of these references being authentication is a separate hypothesis, and I grant that it may not have been necessary or sufficient for the reasons you state.  On the other hand, the fact that Chapter 4 has John in what we would call the Celestial Kingdom implies that he has arrived there in the manner we think of as normal, i.e. through the Endowment.  I think the correlation may be strengthened if the ancient endowment included administration of the Sacrament of the Lord&#039;s Supper.  

I arrive at my hypothesis about the meaning of the blessing passages because it seems to me that the structure of the promises, and the labeling that they contain a hidden meaning, suggest that there is a unifying theme here that even a &quot;mere Christian&quot; would not apprehend.  It seems more likely to me that what is being communicated is something progressive in nature rather than random blessings, that takes one from the Isle of Patmos into the presence of God.  The most obvious candidate seems to be the Endowment.  I am happy to entertain alternative proposals as to what the unifying theme is, what the hidden message consists of.  But unless we have an explanation that provides unity and that reveals information hidden from the casual reader, it remains a mystery, in the formal sense of something that is revealed to those who are prepared to receive it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given the public nature of this venue, I hesitate to go into much more detail about the correspondences I think are there in the language of the promises.  The tree of life is definitely tied to the Garden of Eden, which is properly at the beginning.  As you note, the Endowment has been modified in our own lifetimes, so we don&#8217;t know the particulars of how it was taught in the First Century, and can only find correlations that suggest this is a possibility.  Because the baseline information in the endowment would not be publishable, it is a hypothesis that could not be offered and critiqued and refined in an academic forum.  </p>
<p>The notion about the purpose of these references being authentication is a separate hypothesis, and I grant that it may not have been necessary or sufficient for the reasons you state.  On the other hand, the fact that Chapter 4 has John in what we would call the Celestial Kingdom implies that he has arrived there in the manner we think of as normal, i.e. through the Endowment.  I think the correlation may be strengthened if the ancient endowment included administration of the Sacrament of the Lord&#8217;s Supper.  </p>
<p>I arrive at my hypothesis about the meaning of the blessing passages because it seems to me that the structure of the promises, and the labeling that they contain a hidden meaning, suggest that there is a unifying theme here that even a &#8220;mere Christian&#8221; would not apprehend.  It seems more likely to me that what is being communicated is something progressive in nature rather than random blessings, that takes one from the Isle of Patmos into the presence of God.  The most obvious candidate seems to be the Endowment.  I am happy to entertain alternative proposals as to what the unifying theme is, what the hidden message consists of.  But unless we have an explanation that provides unity and that reveals information hidden from the casual reader, it remains a mystery, in the formal sense of something that is revealed to those who are prepared to receive it.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie M. Smith</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/revelation-21-11/#comment-267841</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie M. Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:13:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4599#comment-267841</guid>
		<description>Raymond, I decided to pull up the seven promises to think about what you wrote.  Here they are:

&quot;He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.&quot;

&quot;He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.&quot;

&quot;He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.&quot;

&quot;And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
  27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
  28 And I will give him the morning star.
  29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.&quot;

&quot;He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.&quot;

&quot;Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
  13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.&quot;

&quot;To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.&quot;

Are some of those temple-ish?  Yes.  But it doesn&#039;t follow the pattern of the endowment closely enough (or in order--shouldn&#039;t eating from the tree of life be near the end?) for me to feel comfortable with the idea that it is aiming to suggest it.  Further, given the changes in temple worship just in my lifetime, I would seriously doubt that the 2000-year-old version would be similar enough to recognize any comparison. 

But even if hints of the endowment are there (and I agree that there might be hints there) the idea that it was used to authenticate that the letter was really from an apostle and not an apostate is, in my opinion, extremely unlikely.  In the first place, I doubt something like that would have worked because some of the apostates would have been endowed (whatever that would have meant then, if anything) and therefore able to fake the letter.  (Looking at the seven promises above, would you feel certain, if it were written today, that it came from an endowed person?  I wouldn&#039;t.  Everything in there can come from the OT or current first century general cultural knowledge, as I&#039;ll show when I discuss each one.)  Further, we know how they authenticated the letters--they had trusted people known to the sender and the audience hand deliver them--there&#039;s plenty of evidence for this in Paul&#039;s letters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Raymond, I decided to pull up the seven promises to think about what you wrote.  Here they are:</p>
<p>&#8220;He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:<br />
  27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.<br />
  28 And I will give him the morning star.<br />
  29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.<br />
  13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.&#8221;</p>
<p>Are some of those temple-ish?  Yes.  But it doesn&#8217;t follow the pattern of the endowment closely enough (or in order&#8211;shouldn&#8217;t eating from the tree of life be near the end?) for me to feel comfortable with the idea that it is aiming to suggest it.  Further, given the changes in temple worship just in my lifetime, I would seriously doubt that the 2000-year-old version would be similar enough to recognize any comparison. </p>
<p>But even if hints of the endowment are there (and I agree that there might be hints there) the idea that it was used to authenticate that the letter was really from an apostle and not an apostate is, in my opinion, extremely unlikely.  In the first place, I doubt something like that would have worked because some of the apostates would have been endowed (whatever that would have meant then, if anything) and therefore able to fake the letter.  (Looking at the seven promises above, would you feel certain, if it were written today, that it came from an endowed person?  I wouldn&#8217;t.  Everything in there can come from the OT or current first century general cultural knowledge, as I&#8217;ll show when I discuss each one.)  Further, we know how they authenticated the letters&#8211;they had trusted people known to the sender and the audience hand deliver them&#8211;there&#8217;s plenty of evidence for this in Paul&#8217;s letters.</p>
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		<title>By: Raymond Takashi Swenson</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/revelation-21-11/#comment-267818</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond Takashi Swenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 05:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4599#comment-267818</guid>
		<description>Julie: You mentioned that the order of the seven churches corresponds to the order one would encounter them as you traveled around western Asia Minor.  I have no doubt that the admonitions to each church were specifically targeted at its specific problems.  However, as you noted, the promises are made to the churches (plural), including probably other churches outside those seven.  The phrase &quot;He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear&quot; is also used in Matthew 13 as Jesus explains the Parable of the Sower, preceding it with an explanation (in chiastic format!) of the whole reason he taught in parables, so that meanings would be hidden from the unprepared while opened to the prepared.  The parables were, in their full meaning, encoded.  

I think, as you hint, that this is specifically true of the blessings that are promised at the end of each of the seven sections, which all have the same hidden meaning flag--&quot;He that hath ears to hear, let him hear&quot;.  They obviously begin with Eden, and then progress through the Fall (the second death), and I believe a correlation can be found with the successive stages of the Endowment.  Hugh Nibley wrote about the records referring to the ancient use of the prayer circle among the apostles, based on teachings they received from Christ after his resurrection.  His book &quot;An Egyptian endowment&quot; suggests that the endowment as we know it was also known in some form anciently, including in the First Century.  

I would suggest that, since the more mature saints would have been versed in the Endowment, they would recognize references to aspects of it in Chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation, and would have connected them in a way that the casual reader would not.  Why would John do this? John was not able to communicate to them directly.  There were apostates who were ready to forge letters purporting to be from the apostles. By offering a hidden message that would only be understood by the initiated, John was authenticating Revelation as coming from one of the small group of people who were mature saints.  If he had administered the Endowment to leaders in each church, they would recognize it as coming from him. 

Having that assurance that it was in fact a Revelation to John, and affirming the promised blessings of the endowment, would resonate with the assurance of final eternal victory with god that is the overall message of revelation.  In particular, while Revelation assures the church in general, the Endowment is specific to each saint who has received it.  

Since those who have received their own Endowment in the temples know what it consists of, the correlation between the seven blessings and the stages of that ordinance can be recognized without me going into detail.  I will just point out that the last blessing involves knocking at a door and meeting the Savior, and that this segues into John being in the heavenly temple to receive the remainder of the Revelation or Apocalypse, which literally means &quot;opening the veil.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julie: You mentioned that the order of the seven churches corresponds to the order one would encounter them as you traveled around western Asia Minor.  I have no doubt that the admonitions to each church were specifically targeted at its specific problems.  However, as you noted, the promises are made to the churches (plural), including probably other churches outside those seven.  The phrase &#8220;He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear&#8221; is also used in Matthew 13 as Jesus explains the Parable of the Sower, preceding it with an explanation (in chiastic format!) of the whole reason he taught in parables, so that meanings would be hidden from the unprepared while opened to the prepared.  The parables were, in their full meaning, encoded.  </p>
<p>I think, as you hint, that this is specifically true of the blessings that are promised at the end of each of the seven sections, which all have the same hidden meaning flag&#8211;&#8221;He that hath ears to hear, let him hear&#8221;.  They obviously begin with Eden, and then progress through the Fall (the second death), and I believe a correlation can be found with the successive stages of the Endowment.  Hugh Nibley wrote about the records referring to the ancient use of the prayer circle among the apostles, based on teachings they received from Christ after his resurrection.  His book &#8220;An Egyptian endowment&#8221; suggests that the endowment as we know it was also known in some form anciently, including in the First Century.  </p>
<p>I would suggest that, since the more mature saints would have been versed in the Endowment, they would recognize references to aspects of it in Chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation, and would have connected them in a way that the casual reader would not.  Why would John do this? John was not able to communicate to them directly.  There were apostates who were ready to forge letters purporting to be from the apostles. By offering a hidden message that would only be understood by the initiated, John was authenticating Revelation as coming from one of the small group of people who were mature saints.  If he had administered the Endowment to leaders in each church, they would recognize it as coming from him. </p>
<p>Having that assurance that it was in fact a Revelation to John, and affirming the promised blessings of the endowment, would resonate with the assurance of final eternal victory with god that is the overall message of revelation.  In particular, while Revelation assures the church in general, the Endowment is specific to each saint who has received it.  </p>
<p>Since those who have received their own Endowment in the temples know what it consists of, the correlation between the seven blessings and the stages of that ordinance can be recognized without me going into detail.  I will just point out that the last blessing involves knocking at a door and meeting the Savior, and that this segues into John being in the heavenly temple to receive the remainder of the Revelation or Apocalypse, which literally means &#8220;opening the veil.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Julie M. Smith</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/revelation-21-11/#comment-267796</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie M. Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 23:08:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4599#comment-267796</guid>
		<description>&quot;I came into it thinking to learn a little about candlesticks and robes and so forth but have gotten an entirely different message about the ministry of a tender shepherd to his flocks.&quot;

Yes!  

Thanks for keeping me motivated to keep these coming, y&#039;all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I came into it thinking to learn a little about candlesticks and robes and so forth but have gotten an entirely different message about the ministry of a tender shepherd to his flocks.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes!  </p>
<p>Thanks for keeping me motivated to keep these coming, y&#8217;all.</p>
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