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	<title>Comments on: Institutional obsolescence, and other tales of romance and intrigue from the history book</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/institutional-obsolescence-and-other-tales-from-the-history-book/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: TPMCafÃ© Trackback</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/institutional-obsolescence-and-other-tales-from-the-history-book/#comment-267978</link>
		<dc:creator>TPMCafÃ© Trackback</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4586#comment-267978</guid>
		<description>Mormons enter Calif. marriage fight

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/06/mormons-enter-calif-marriage-f.php</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mormons enter Calif. marriage fight</p>
<p><a href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/06/mormons-enter-calif-marriage-f.php" rel="nofollow">http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/06/mormons-enter-calif-marriage-f.php</a></p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/institutional-obsolescence-and-other-tales-from-the-history-book/#comment-265907</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4586#comment-265907</guid>
		<description>#15: Thank you for your kindness. When faced with Word Masters ( like you, Nate, Raymond), I know I can get my head knocked off. It&#039;s like I am a kid again, being faced down be the big kid, and my only defense is &quot;Your shoe&#039;s untied&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#15: Thank you for your kindness. When faced with Word Masters ( like you, Nate, Raymond), I know I can get my head knocked off. It&#8217;s like I am a kid again, being faced down be the big kid, and my only defense is &#8220;Your shoe&#8217;s untied&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde Welch</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/institutional-obsolescence-and-other-tales-from-the-history-book/#comment-265888</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 13:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4586#comment-265888</guid>
		<description>LOL, Bob! I get the feeling you&#039;re trying to say &quot;bish plz.&quot;  See, I can be concise!

I don&#039;t disagree with your substantive point (see my #3).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL, Bob! I get the feeling you&#8217;re trying to say &#8220;bish plz.&#8221;  See, I can be concise!</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t disagree with your substantive point (see my #3).</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/institutional-obsolescence-and-other-tales-from-the-history-book/#comment-265804</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 22:21:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4586#comment-265804</guid>
		<description>#12: Rosalynde: Wow! You uses a 60 word sentence to clean up my thinking. I don&#039;t even own a 60 word sentence. I am honored. The only challenge left for you is to beat Raymond&#039;s 900 word paragraphs.
Your &quot;natural family&#039;, usually only last, if at all, only though infancy for a child, or the birth of the next child. I don&#039;t know, even in higher Mammals, the animal has a family for more than a year or two.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#12: Rosalynde: Wow! You uses a 60 word sentence to clean up my thinking. I don&#8217;t even own a 60 word sentence. I am honored. The only challenge left for you is to beat Raymond&#8217;s 900 word paragraphs.<br />
Your &#8220;natural family&#8217;, usually only last, if at all, only though infancy for a child, or the birth of the next child. I don&#8217;t know, even in higher Mammals, the animal has a family for more than a year or two.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/institutional-obsolescence-and-other-tales-from-the-history-book/#comment-265748</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 19:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4586#comment-265748</guid>
		<description>#11: On some, I agree. The Ward did, for me, fill in for a dysfunctional family as I grew up. But I am not sure the Ward and the Mormon Village did the same in the 19th C. I don&#039;t believe Joseph Smith was even into &#039; congregations (?). Nor am I not sure the Ward or the Village, was as powerful as the Mormon Clans. The Church is far more into it&#039;s clan histories, than it&#039;s ward histories.  As for picking your spouses, This was done by the &#039;Clans&#039; for my Grandparents.
I do not see the ward doing daycare for it&#039;s working single mother, or taking in foster children. I don&#039;t see it doing much for it&#039;s elderly.
I guess my point is that relationships should fulfill the needs of the individualists, not the other way around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#11: On some, I agree. The Ward did, for me, fill in for a dysfunctional family as I grew up. But I am not sure the Ward and the Mormon Village did the same in the 19th C. I don&#8217;t believe Joseph Smith was even into &#8216; congregations (?). Nor am I not sure the Ward or the Village, was as powerful as the Mormon Clans. The Church is far more into it&#8217;s clan histories, than it&#8217;s ward histories.  As for picking your spouses, This was done by the &#8216;Clans&#8217; for my Grandparents.<br />
I do not see the ward doing daycare for it&#8217;s working single mother, or taking in foster children. I don&#8217;t see it doing much for it&#8217;s elderly.<br />
I guess my point is that relationships should fulfill the needs of the individualists, not the other way around.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde Welch</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/institutional-obsolescence-and-other-tales-from-the-history-book/#comment-265732</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 18:41:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4586#comment-265732</guid>
		<description>Mike, re: your #5, yes, I personally am unsure. Does familial instability cause economic hardship, or does economic hardship cause familial instability? I can imagine scenarios either way. If the social science has answered this question definitively, I don&#039;t know about it. But if you know of research that answers the question, by all means, share! I gobble that stuff up. 

Bob, I&#039;m not sure where you find the presumption of a transhistorical nuclear family lurking in the observation that the decline of institutional service may be in some ways analogous to the decline of institutional marriage; if anything, I&#039;m trying to emphasize the historical contingency of the family, in order to stress that it may disappear under changing conditions. As I remarked to Jonathan, there&#039;s a certain logic to the father + mother + child arrangement, but as I said, that doesn&#039;t necessarily mean that the &quot;natural family&quot;  will always persist as the favored social arrangement.

Tony, thank you very much for the high praise. Wow!

And Raymond, thanks for your contribution. Nice points made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, re: your #5, yes, I personally am unsure. Does familial instability cause economic hardship, or does economic hardship cause familial instability? I can imagine scenarios either way. If the social science has answered this question definitively, I don&#8217;t know about it. But if you know of research that answers the question, by all means, share! I gobble that stuff up. </p>
<p>Bob, I&#8217;m not sure where you find the presumption of a transhistorical nuclear family lurking in the observation that the decline of institutional service may be in some ways analogous to the decline of institutional marriage; if anything, I&#8217;m trying to emphasize the historical contingency of the family, in order to stress that it may disappear under changing conditions. As I remarked to Jonathan, there&#8217;s a certain logic to the father + mother + child arrangement, but as I said, that doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean that the &#8220;natural family&#8221;  will always persist as the favored social arrangement.</p>
<p>Tony, thank you very much for the high praise. Wow!</p>
<p>And Raymond, thanks for your contribution. Nice points made.</p>
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		<title>By: Raymond Takashi Swenson</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/institutional-obsolescence-and-other-tales-from-the-history-book/#comment-265729</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond Takashi Swenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 18:18:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4586#comment-265729</guid>
		<description>I would agree that an extended family is more normal, historically, with grandparents, adult siblings and their spouses, and their children.  And there is a role for the next level of organization, a village.  

What the LDS Church creates for each family is that village experience, in which we spend a good deal of our time with a limited universe of neighbors with various kinds of relationships, including leaders of the ward and of subsets (Relief Society, Priesthood quorum, etc.), in which there are both peer relationships among adults and among children, and mentoring relationships between adults and children.  We become related to other families through our children&#039;s relationships and through home teaching and visiting teaching relationships.  We establish close relationships in presidencies of each organizational unit.  

The fact that our LDS term for this village is a &quot;ward&quot;, based on a subdivision of a city, is an historical accident but very appropriate.  It is more than a list of people who sit in pews for an hour each Sunday listening to sermons.  It makes demands on my time almost on the level of my work and my immediate household.  Both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were very conscious of creating not just congregations of members, who lived most of their lives outside the context of the Church, but actual communities and cities that could require us to exercise our religion 24/7.  

The ward environment has us interacting with each other not just individually but also on the basis of husband and wife and family.  We are expected to sustain the ward, and the ward is tasked to sustain us, not just individually but also as a married couple and as a family with children.  If marriage gives us each a witness to our lives, the ward gives us a witness to our families.  The ward shares grief and joy, provides food and comfort, calls us to forget our own pain and ameliorate the suffering of others.  

The randomness of the creation of a ward, the accident of where we collectively choose to live, is like the randomness of the children who arrive in our families.  Apart from our spouses, we have no choice in our parents and our children, our brothers and sisters.  We learn loyalty and love in relationships that begin with simple duty and dependence.  Love grows toward the people we serve, people who have a relationship with us solely because a quorum or Relief Society leader matched our names on a list.  

For that matter, while we choose our spouses, they are always strangers to us at first in so many ways, and we come to know each other as we live together through the ups and downs of life.  Marriage is a pledge that we will maintain the relationship as a duty even when we realize we don&#039;t fully know our partner, and will give love the opportunity to grow over and around this new facet of the other&#039;s personality.  

It seems to me that, whatever we want to say about marriage, it needs to be placed in the context of the larger relationships that a married couple are embedded in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would agree that an extended family is more normal, historically, with grandparents, adult siblings and their spouses, and their children.  And there is a role for the next level of organization, a village.  </p>
<p>What the LDS Church creates for each family is that village experience, in which we spend a good deal of our time with a limited universe of neighbors with various kinds of relationships, including leaders of the ward and of subsets (Relief Society, Priesthood quorum, etc.), in which there are both peer relationships among adults and among children, and mentoring relationships between adults and children.  We become related to other families through our children&#8217;s relationships and through home teaching and visiting teaching relationships.  We establish close relationships in presidencies of each organizational unit.  </p>
<p>The fact that our LDS term for this village is a &#8220;ward&#8221;, based on a subdivision of a city, is an historical accident but very appropriate.  It is more than a list of people who sit in pews for an hour each Sunday listening to sermons.  It makes demands on my time almost on the level of my work and my immediate household.  Both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were very conscious of creating not just congregations of members, who lived most of their lives outside the context of the Church, but actual communities and cities that could require us to exercise our religion 24/7.  </p>
<p>The ward environment has us interacting with each other not just individually but also on the basis of husband and wife and family.  We are expected to sustain the ward, and the ward is tasked to sustain us, not just individually but also as a married couple and as a family with children.  If marriage gives us each a witness to our lives, the ward gives us a witness to our families.  The ward shares grief and joy, provides food and comfort, calls us to forget our own pain and ameliorate the suffering of others.  </p>
<p>The randomness of the creation of a ward, the accident of where we collectively choose to live, is like the randomness of the children who arrive in our families.  Apart from our spouses, we have no choice in our parents and our children, our brothers and sisters.  We learn loyalty and love in relationships that begin with simple duty and dependence.  Love grows toward the people we serve, people who have a relationship with us solely because a quorum or Relief Society leader matched our names on a list.  </p>
<p>For that matter, while we choose our spouses, they are always strangers to us at first in so many ways, and we come to know each other as we live together through the ups and downs of life.  Marriage is a pledge that we will maintain the relationship as a duty even when we realize we don&#8217;t fully know our partner, and will give love the opportunity to grow over and around this new facet of the other&#8217;s personality.  </p>
<p>It seems to me that, whatever we want to say about marriage, it needs to be placed in the context of the larger relationships that a married couple are embedded in.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/institutional-obsolescence-and-other-tales-from-the-history-book/#comment-265722</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4586#comment-265722</guid>
		<description>#7:  Mike, you may be right, it could be me who is making the assumptions.  But I don&#039;t see the nuclear family as the most stable model. Nor the most used model.The nuclear family can weaken when the child becomes an adult. Larger models, to me, are more stable (Clans,*think Braveheart, The Godfather, etc.*), and can go on for hundreds of years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#7:  Mike, you may be right, it could be me who is making the assumptions.  But I don&#8217;t see the nuclear family as the most stable model. Nor the most used model.The nuclear family can weaken when the child becomes an adult. Larger models, to me, are more stable (Clans,*think Braveheart, The Godfather, etc.*), and can go on for hundreds of years.</p>
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		<title>By: Bro. Jones</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/institutional-obsolescence-and-other-tales-from-the-history-book/#comment-265719</link>
		<dc:creator>Bro. Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:27:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4586#comment-265719</guid>
		<description>Rosalynde said: &quot;I doubt if children on a deep level will take a pro-marriage message away from a married gay household. I think it at least as likely that they will take away an indifference to marriage as a social institution&quot;

What makes you think that?  As long as marriage carried with it legal rights and entitlements, anyone entering into marriage sends the message that those rights and entitlements are important.  So what if not every married couple--gay or straight--gets sealed in the temple?  That doesn&#039;t send a message that married couples are uninterested in a long-term outlook for their relationship, nor does it devalue temple marriage.  Likewise, marriage does not become socially irrelevant simply because not every child learns a &quot;Families Are Forever, Fathers Preside with the Priesthood, Mothers Stay Home and Nurture&quot; message from their parents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rosalynde said: &#8220;I doubt if children on a deep level will take a pro-marriage message away from a married gay household. I think it at least as likely that they will take away an indifference to marriage as a social institution&#8221;</p>
<p>What makes you think that?  As long as marriage carried with it legal rights and entitlements, anyone entering into marriage sends the message that those rights and entitlements are important.  So what if not every married couple&#8211;gay or straight&#8211;gets sealed in the temple?  That doesn&#8217;t send a message that married couples are uninterested in a long-term outlook for their relationship, nor does it devalue temple marriage.  Likewise, marriage does not become socially irrelevant simply because not every child learns a &#8220;Families Are Forever, Fathers Preside with the Priesthood, Mothers Stay Home and Nurture&#8221; message from their parents.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/06/institutional-obsolescence-and-other-tales-from-the-history-book/#comment-265699</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 16:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4586#comment-265699</guid>
		<description>As usual, another concise, thoughful, and well-written post from Rosalynde.
I realize that this comment really adds nothing to the coversation but I have to state that this post is indicative of why Rosalynde is one of my favorite bloggers in the bloggernacle.  

Just sayin&#039;...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As usual, another concise, thoughful, and well-written post from Rosalynde.<br />
I realize that this comment really adds nothing to the coversation but I have to state that this post is indicative of why Rosalynde is one of my favorite bloggers in the bloggernacle.  </p>
<p>Just sayin&#8217;&#8230;</p>
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