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	<title>Comments on: Heimskringla and historicity</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/heimskringla-and-historicity/</link>
	<description>Truth will prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Ardis Parshall</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/heimskringla-and-historicity/#comment-265390</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 02:10:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>(g) The school-that-must-not-be-named *is* in southern California, queuno, but, going along with Hans&#039;s low opinion of that California school, I note that it is so unoriginal that it can&#039;t even come up with its own initials, but uses those of the school in South Carolina.

Lars Glenson would have been much clearer, I&#039;m sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(g) The school-that-must-not-be-named *is* in southern California, queuno, but, going along with Hans&#8217;s low opinion of that California school, I note that it is so unoriginal that it can&#8217;t even come up with its own initials, but uses those of the school in South Carolina.</p>
<p>Lars Glenson would have been much clearer, I&#8217;m sure.</p>
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		<title>By: queuno</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/heimskringla-and-historicity/#comment-265388</link>
		<dc:creator>queuno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 01:47:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4538#comment-265388</guid>
		<description>Southern California, not South Carolina, unless Ardis is *really* tweaking Hans now... ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Southern California, not South Carolina, unless Ardis is *really* tweaking Hans now&#8230; ;)</p>
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		<title>By: John C.</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/heimskringla-and-historicity/#comment-262829</link>
		<dc:creator>John C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 15:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4538#comment-262829</guid>
		<description>Jonathan,
I haven&#039;t read the comments carefully, but my question is that if Mosiah or Mormon &quot;created&quot; this history, how did they know so much about Jerusalem?  Why would they situate themselves in Jerusalem?  Can you have this history without some knowledge of the Ancient Near East?  If you don&#039;t have anyone actually coming from the old world to the new, why or how do they spontaneously create links to it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan,<br />
I haven&#8217;t read the comments carefully, but my question is that if Mosiah or Mormon &#8220;created&#8221; this history, how did they know so much about Jerusalem?  Why would they situate themselves in Jerusalem?  Can you have this history without some knowledge of the Ancient Near East?  If you don&#8217;t have anyone actually coming from the old world to the new, why or how do they spontaneously create links to it?</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Green</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/heimskringla-and-historicity/#comment-262763</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 18:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4538#comment-262763</guid>
		<description>Chris, what I meant by the sentence is pretty much what JWL has said. Taking the Book of Mormon seriously as history means treating it as one would treat any other primary source, as a document reflecting particular perspectives rather than the final word (on historical questions, at least).

It&#039;s entirely possible not to take that step, either from a faithful or a skeptical perspective. The skeptic would say that the book is fraud to begin with, and so it makes no sense to treat it as a historical document. The faithful perspective is similar to Dave&#039;s objection above, namely that the nature of Joseph Smith&#039;s translation doesn&#039;t permit the text to be as fallible as other historical documents. We can still interpret the text theologically or as literature, but we can&#039;t use it to do history.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, what I meant by the sentence is pretty much what JWL has said. Taking the Book of Mormon seriously as history means treating it as one would treat any other primary source, as a document reflecting particular perspectives rather than the final word (on historical questions, at least).</p>
<p>It&#8217;s entirely possible not to take that step, either from a faithful or a skeptical perspective. The skeptic would say that the book is fraud to begin with, and so it makes no sense to treat it as a historical document. The faithful perspective is similar to Dave&#8217;s objection above, namely that the nature of Joseph Smith&#8217;s translation doesn&#8217;t permit the text to be as fallible as other historical documents. We can still interpret the text theologically or as literature, but we can&#8217;t use it to do history.</p>
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		<title>By: Stirling</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/heimskringla-and-historicity/#comment-262736</link>
		<dc:creator>Stirling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 15:27:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>See, for example, the book &lt;em&gt;Seeking after Our Dead: Our Greatest Responsibility - a Course of Lessons for Study in Classes in Genealogy&lt;/em&gt;, Section III, &quot;Where we must seek,â€ subsection â€œAncient Genealogies,&quot;  published by the Churchâ€™s Genealogical Society of Utah. 
More accessibly, the last several paragraphs of this &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/british-israelism/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bycommonconsent.com&lt;/a&gt;post  on British Israelism within Mormonism discuss this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See, for example, the book <em>Seeking after Our Dead: Our Greatest Responsibility &#8211; a Course of Lessons for Study in Classes in Genealogy</em>, Section III, &#8220;Where we must seek,â€ subsection â€œAncient Genealogies,&#8221;  published by the Churchâ€™s Genealogical Society of Utah.<br />
More accessibly, the last several paragraphs of this <a href="http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2006/02/british-israelism/" rel="nofollow">bycommonconsent.com</a>post  on British Israelism within Mormonism discuss this.</p>
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		<title>By: JWL</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/heimskringla-and-historicity/#comment-262735</link>
		<dc:creator>JWL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 15:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Chris --

You are the one inserting the words &quot;skeptically&quot; and &quot;skepticism&quot; into the discussion.  People who suggest underlying complexities in the BoM as a historical document are not being skeptical in the same way that biblical critics are because these folks accept the BoM as an authentically historical document.  Doing so requires them to accept its miraculous (and therefore divine) origins which sets them wholly apart from the biblical critics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris &#8211;</p>
<p>You are the one inserting the words &#8220;skeptically&#8221; and &#8220;skepticism&#8221; into the discussion.  People who suggest underlying complexities in the BoM as a historical document are not being skeptical in the same way that biblical critics are because these folks accept the BoM as an authentically historical document.  Doing so requires them to accept its miraculous (and therefore divine) origins which sets them wholly apart from the biblical critics.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/heimskringla-and-historicity/#comment-262733</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 15:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Uhh, I don\&#039;t have any experience with Mormonism from the 1920s, granted. But, Priam, Odin? Do you have any cites?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uhh, I don\&#8217;t have any experience with Mormonism from the 1920s, granted. But, Priam, Odin? Do you have any cites?</p>
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		<title>By: Stirling</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/heimskringla-and-historicity/#comment-262732</link>
		<dc:creator>Stirling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 15:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4538#comment-262732</guid>
		<description>I wouldn&#039;t be too hard on the Jones referred to in 29,33,34, as in at least the 1920s and 30s many Mormon believed that their family tree included both Priam, King of Troy, and the Norse god Odin. This belief appears to have been based on church-published lesson manuals that repeated folkore pubished in contemporary &quot;Anglo Israelism/British Israelism&quot; publications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t be too hard on the Jones referred to in 29,33,34, as in at least the 1920s and 30s many Mormon believed that their family tree included both Priam, King of Troy, and the Norse god Odin. This belief appears to have been based on church-published lesson manuals that repeated folkore pubished in contemporary &#8220;Anglo Israelism/British Israelism&#8221; publications.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Grant</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/heimskringla-and-historicity/#comment-262724</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 13:43:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4538#comment-262724</guid>
		<description>Are either of the following what was intended by the sentence I quoted in #35?

(1)  &quot;People who want to take principles of historical skepticism seriously with respect to the Book of Mormon have to keep in mind the distinction between what a document says, and what actually happened.â€
(2)  &quot;People who want to consider the Book of Mormon skeptically as a historical document have to keep in mind the distinction between what a document says, and what actually happened.â€

Leaders of the Church seem to want us to &quot;take the Book of Mormon seriously as a historical document&quot;, but I sense little encouragement from them to engage in skeptical speculation about how it might incorporate forgeries on the order of the Donation of Constantine.  Those who, because of profession or hobby, are inclined to treat the Book of Mormon this way are, of course, welcome to do so, but it cannot reasonably be maintained that such treatment is what seriousness demands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are either of the following what was intended by the sentence I quoted in #35?</p>
<p>(1)  &#8220;People who want to take principles of historical skepticism seriously with respect to the Book of Mormon have to keep in mind the distinction between what a document says, and what actually happened.â€<br />
(2)  &#8220;People who want to consider the Book of Mormon skeptically as a historical document have to keep in mind the distinction between what a document says, and what actually happened.â€</p>
<p>Leaders of the Church seem to want us to &#8220;take the Book of Mormon seriously as a historical document&#8221;, but I sense little encouragement from them to engage in skeptical speculation about how it might incorporate forgeries on the order of the Donation of Constantine.  Those who, because of profession or hobby, are inclined to treat the Book of Mormon this way are, of course, welcome to do so, but it cannot reasonably be maintained that such treatment is what seriousness demands.</p>
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		<title>By: Hans Hansen</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/heimskringla-and-historicity/#comment-262710</link>
		<dc:creator>Hans Hansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 06:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Apology accepted, Ardis.  Of course over in Europe I was asked what my Yew-cla tee-shirt stood for!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apology accepted, Ardis.  Of course over in Europe I was asked what my Yew-cla tee-shirt stood for!</p>
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