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	<title>Comments on: Catholic parish registers belong to humanity</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/catholic-parish-registers-belong-to-humanity/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Wilfried</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/catholic-parish-registers-belong-to-humanity/#comment-262208</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilfried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 20:14:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4531#comment-262208</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been away from my computer for some five hours -- teaching.  Just browsed through all the comments and noticed several side threads developing -- not always focused on the topic, but nevertheless interesting. I know I should comment on all your contributions, but will limit to a heartfelt thanks for the input.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been away from my computer for some five hours &#8212; teaching.  Just browsed through all the comments and noticed several side threads developing &#8212; not always focused on the topic, but nevertheless interesting. I know I should comment on all your contributions, but will limit to a heartfelt thanks for the input.</p>
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		<title>By: NoS</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/catholic-parish-registers-belong-to-humanity/#comment-262204</link>
		<dc:creator>NoS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 19:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4531#comment-262204</guid>
		<description>Julie, If I go ask the Bishop to show me something from the CHI, he wil show it to me.  There&#039;s nothing secret.  The problem is that anti-Mormons (e.i. Sandra and Gerald Tanner) were breaking copyright, taking things out of context, etc.  

As was pointed out earlier, there is no copyright on this information, and it should now exist in the public domain as a historical record.  The only thing embarrasing in PMG is that the scholarship quality is still very low, even though it isn&#039;t &quot;meant&quot; to be a scholarly book.  It is a guide, and no more.  

Kaimi thank you so much for including the link to that Ensign article.  Having the link so close to Mark&#039;s misrepresentation will go a long way in helping to stop his false promogulation of true mormon doctrine (as opposed to someone&#039;s opinion from the 60&#039;s). It&#039;s a great article, and I higly recommend it to all people reading this blog: MLBC&#039;s (previously defined) and CBB (consevatve blogging bullies).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julie, If I go ask the Bishop to show me something from the CHI, he wil show it to me.  There&#8217;s nothing secret.  The problem is that anti-Mormons (e.i. Sandra and Gerald Tanner) were breaking copyright, taking things out of context, etc.  </p>
<p>As was pointed out earlier, there is no copyright on this information, and it should now exist in the public domain as a historical record.  The only thing embarrasing in PMG is that the scholarship quality is still very low, even though it isn&#8217;t &#8220;meant&#8221; to be a scholarly book.  It is a guide, and no more.  </p>
<p>Kaimi thank you so much for including the link to that Ensign article.  Having the link so close to Mark&#8217;s misrepresentation will go a long way in helping to stop his false promogulation of true mormon doctrine (as opposed to someone&#8217;s opinion from the 60&#8242;s). It&#8217;s a great article, and I higly recommend it to all people reading this blog: MLBC&#8217;s (previously defined) and CBB (consevatve blogging bullies).</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/catholic-parish-registers-belong-to-humanity/#comment-262203</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 19:50:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4531#comment-262203</guid>
		<description>Not sure what you&#039;d find embarrassing in the book ..... I&#039;d give any investigator a copy. I became a missionary when I was  younger only 2 years after being an investigator. 

I know that one problem with &quot;handbooks&quot; is that they get outdated as administrative policies change (everything from confirmation of converts now taking place in sacrament meeting to how many days before you turn 19 you can submit your missionary application) or a myriad of miscellaneous topics (e.g. whether Bishops should ever discuss &quot;family size&quot; with couples - they&#039;re told not to BTW). Can you imagine if there were 10&#039;s of thousands of copies of &quot;handbooks&quot; floating around from 2, 3 or 4 versions ago?? It&#039;s much easier to issue the 5 copies each ward gets and tell them to get rid of the old ones. The &quot;time lapse&quot; between announcing a new policy and its acceptance and knowledge is much quicker than if the handbook has been widely disseminated to 20,000 wards and branches.

I don&#039;t remember everything in Volume 1. If I have a question, I just ask my Bishop.

And I agree, if the Catholic Church wants to limit access, by all means. I&#039;m sure the Church won&#039;t say too much on it and certainly won&#039;t get in some &quot;tit for tat&quot; thing. I&#039;m sure our Catholic genealogical friends will do a lot of talking and complaining. The Church clearly has two motives for collecting data, the important one being to help members complete proxy work for their ancestors. The second is providing a service to individuals throughout the world - I&#039;d put that in the PR/Missionary category and really a NICE thing to do, when you think about it. The Church and its volunteers scanning records have helped millions. My dad was not a member, and he enjoyed visiting the local Family History Center and helping him with his resource, long before I became involved in it. He really appreciated it as to so many friends of the Church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure what you&#8217;d find embarrassing in the book &#8230;.. I&#8217;d give any investigator a copy. I became a missionary when I was  younger only 2 years after being an investigator. </p>
<p>I know that one problem with &#8220;handbooks&#8221; is that they get outdated as administrative policies change (everything from confirmation of converts now taking place in sacrament meeting to how many days before you turn 19 you can submit your missionary application) or a myriad of miscellaneous topics (e.g. whether Bishops should ever discuss &#8220;family size&#8221; with couples &#8211; they&#8217;re told not to BTW). Can you imagine if there were 10&#8242;s of thousands of copies of &#8220;handbooks&#8221; floating around from 2, 3 or 4 versions ago?? It&#8217;s much easier to issue the 5 copies each ward gets and tell them to get rid of the old ones. The &#8220;time lapse&#8221; between announcing a new policy and its acceptance and knowledge is much quicker than if the handbook has been widely disseminated to 20,000 wards and branches.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t remember everything in Volume 1. If I have a question, I just ask my Bishop.</p>
<p>And I agree, if the Catholic Church wants to limit access, by all means. I&#8217;m sure the Church won&#8217;t say too much on it and certainly won&#8217;t get in some &#8220;tit for tat&#8221; thing. I&#8217;m sure our Catholic genealogical friends will do a lot of talking and complaining. The Church clearly has two motives for collecting data, the important one being to help members complete proxy work for their ancestors. The second is providing a service to individuals throughout the world &#8211; I&#8217;d put that in the PR/Missionary category and really a NICE thing to do, when you think about it. The Church and its volunteers scanning records have helped millions. My dad was not a member, and he enjoyed visiting the local Family History Center and helping him with his resource, long before I became involved in it. He really appreciated it as to so many friends of the Church.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie M. Smith</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/catholic-parish-registers-belong-to-humanity/#comment-262202</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie M. Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 19:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4531#comment-262202</guid>
		<description>Will, why do you think that PMG was removed from the website for awhile?  (And, after having read it cover to cover, my opinion is that there are several things in there that would be embarrassing for investigators to see.)

Re: your comments on the GHI or CHI or whatever we want to call it:  I completely disagree with your assessment of vol 1--there is a LOT of material in there that I think (some) church members would be interested in knowing.  At the same time, I support the right of the church to limit access to that information if they so choose, and that was my only point here--that we should allow Catholics to do the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will, why do you think that PMG was removed from the website for awhile?  (And, after having read it cover to cover, my opinion is that there are several things in there that would be embarrassing for investigators to see.)</p>
<p>Re: your comments on the GHI or CHI or whatever we want to call it:  I completely disagree with your assessment of vol 1&#8211;there is a LOT of material in there that I think (some) church members would be interested in knowing.  At the same time, I support the right of the church to limit access to that information if they so choose, and that was my only point here&#8211;that we should allow Catholics to do the same.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/catholic-parish-registers-belong-to-humanity/#comment-262201</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 19:16:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4531#comment-262201</guid>
		<description>Didn&#039;t read Kaimi&#039;s #102.  If I had, I wouldn&#039;t have written #106.  Now I&#039;m out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Didn&#8217;t read Kaimi&#8217;s #102.  If I had, I wouldn&#8217;t have written #106.  Now I&#8217;m out.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/catholic-parish-registers-belong-to-humanity/#comment-262200</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 19:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4531#comment-262200</guid>
		<description>NoS, You might think it&#039;s clever, but it is **incredibly** inaccurate.  Use it all you want, but Mark IV is correct that it automatically pits you against many here - both those who might fit your description AND those who do not but you assume do - as well as those who simply don&#039;t like condescending labels.  

&quot;Mormon&quot; was quite clever when it was coined by those who despised the Church, but I don&#039;t think the early saints chuckled when they first heard it used to claim they weren&#039;t Christain.  &quot;J Dubs&quot; might be clever, but I don&#039;t call ANY of my Jehovah&#039;s Witness friends that - behind their backs or to their faces.  There are numerous derogatory terms that are &quot;clever&quot; - but simply insensitive to a great degree.  I heard all kinds of clever terms to describe racial differences when I lived in the Deep South, but I wouldn&#039;t defend a single one due to its cleverness.  

Sorry, Wilfried.  I won&#039;t continue this threadjack further.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NoS, You might think it&#8217;s clever, but it is **incredibly** inaccurate.  Use it all you want, but Mark IV is correct that it automatically pits you against many here &#8211; both those who might fit your description AND those who do not but you assume do &#8211; as well as those who simply don&#8217;t like condescending labels.  </p>
<p>&#8220;Mormon&#8221; was quite clever when it was coined by those who despised the Church, but I don&#8217;t think the early saints chuckled when they first heard it used to claim they weren&#8217;t Christain.  &#8220;J Dubs&#8221; might be clever, but I don&#8217;t call ANY of my Jehovah&#8217;s Witness friends that &#8211; behind their backs or to their faces.  There are numerous derogatory terms that are &#8220;clever&#8221; &#8211; but simply insensitive to a great degree.  I heard all kinds of clever terms to describe racial differences when I lived in the Deep South, but I wouldn&#8217;t defend a single one due to its cleverness.  </p>
<p>Sorry, Wilfried.  I won&#8217;t continue this threadjack further.</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/catholic-parish-registers-belong-to-humanity/#comment-262198</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 19:04:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4531#comment-262198</guid>
		<description>Preach My Gospel is available in pdf. It can also be ordered online. I can assure you that the missionaries would like nothing better than for everyone they are teaching (and every member) to read and study this book. What a wonderful resource. Everyone would benefit from reading it. It is not about a \&quot;method\&quot; of conversion. It emphasizes the importance of the Holy Ghost and that conversion has nothing to do with \&quot;convincing\&quot; or \&quot;a method\&quot;.

The Church has over time been adding more books and magazines that can be downloaded as pdf - many (most) were always available for purchase and now they are offered free as pdf (e.g. Ensign magazine).

Yes, some things are not accessible to all members but only can be ordered by a Ward or Branch - these are mainly forms and administrative things that no member would actually want.

As far as the Church Handbook of Instructions (incorrectly called GHI above), it does not contain anything \&quot;secret\&quot; or earth shattering. I was a Bishop and am currently a High Councilor so I don\&#039;t even get a copy now, just the portion of the second book (it has two volumes) that pertains to my calling (e.g. Sunday School). Volume 1 of CHI is mainly for Bishoprics (including Ward Clerk and Executive Secretary) who get 5 copies, Stake Presidencies and Mission Presidencies. It very much helps these people do their calling (if they read and follow it). Every 3-5 years it is revised - things are added; things are deleted. It does have a lot of gospel discussion, but certainly has a lot of administrative stuff that would bore most members...The trend in the last two decades has been to greatly shorten it, leaving leaders to lead by the Spirit more (my opinion) and be less inclined to want to \&quot;look things up\&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Preach My Gospel is available in pdf. It can also be ordered online. I can assure you that the missionaries would like nothing better than for everyone they are teaching (and every member) to read and study this book. What a wonderful resource. Everyone would benefit from reading it. It is not about a \&#8221;method\&#8221; of conversion. It emphasizes the importance of the Holy Ghost and that conversion has nothing to do with \&#8221;convincing\&#8221; or \&#8221;a method\&#8221;.</p>
<p>The Church has over time been adding more books and magazines that can be downloaded as pdf &#8211; many (most) were always available for purchase and now they are offered free as pdf (e.g. Ensign magazine).</p>
<p>Yes, some things are not accessible to all members but only can be ordered by a Ward or Branch &#8211; these are mainly forms and administrative things that no member would actually want.</p>
<p>As far as the Church Handbook of Instructions (incorrectly called GHI above), it does not contain anything \&#8221;secret\&#8221; or earth shattering. I was a Bishop and am currently a High Councilor so I don\&#8217;t even get a copy now, just the portion of the second book (it has two volumes) that pertains to my calling (e.g. Sunday School). Volume 1 of CHI is mainly for Bishoprics (including Ward Clerk and Executive Secretary) who get 5 copies, Stake Presidencies and Mission Presidencies. It very much helps these people do their calling (if they read and follow it). Every 3-5 years it is revised &#8211; things are added; things are deleted. It does have a lot of gospel discussion, but certainly has a lot of administrative stuff that would bore most members&#8230;The trend in the last two decades has been to greatly shorten it, leaving leaders to lead by the Spirit more (my opinion) and be less inclined to want to \&#8221;look things up\&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark IV</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/catholic-parish-registers-belong-to-humanity/#comment-262197</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark IV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 18:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4531#comment-262197</guid>
		<description>Quite right, Kaimi.  The second edition refers to &lt;i&gt;both&lt;/i&gt; Catholics and Protestants as the whore of Babylon.

Given that fact, we ought to be able to accept their ambivalence about the way NoS seeks to impose his &quot;act of love&quot; upon them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quite right, Kaimi.  The second edition refers to <i>both</i> Catholics and Protestants as the whore of Babylon.</p>
<p>Given that fact, we ought to be able to accept their ambivalence about the way NoS seeks to impose his &#8220;act of love&#8221; upon them.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaimi Wenger</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/catholic-parish-registers-belong-to-humanity/#comment-262195</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaimi Wenger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 18:22:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4531#comment-262195</guid>
		<description>It is correct that the church has moved away from Elder McConkie&#039;s 1960s views.  The latest edition of Mormon Doctrine does not contain the same anti-Catholic language.  And there has been at least one Ensign article that I&#039;m aware of ( http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&amp;locale=0&amp;sourceId=a05379356427b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&amp;hideNav=1 ) which directly contradicts Elder McConkie&#039;s earlier position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is correct that the church has moved away from Elder McConkie&#8217;s 1960s views.  The latest edition of Mormon Doctrine does not contain the same anti-Catholic language.  And there has been at least one Ensign article that I&#8217;m aware of ( <a href="http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&#038;locale=0&#038;sourceId=a05379356427b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&#038;hideNav=1" rel="nofollow">http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&#038;locale=0&#038;sourceId=a05379356427b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&#038;hideNav=1</a> ) which directly contradicts Elder McConkie&#8217;s earlier position.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaimi Wenger</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/catholic-parish-registers-belong-to-humanity/#comment-262194</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaimi Wenger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 18:08:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4531#comment-262194</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the Rosetta Stone on that translation, NoS.  I&#039;m sure that Mark&#039;s main concern was that he didn&#039;t understand the underlying words in your neologism.  I assume that you&#039;re applying the term as an &quot;act of love&quot; . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the Rosetta Stone on that translation, NoS.  I&#8217;m sure that Mark&#8217;s main concern was that he didn&#8217;t understand the underlying words in your neologism.  I assume that you&#8217;re applying the term as an &#8220;act of love&#8221; . . .</p>
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