Comments on: Apostasy and the Dark Ages http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/apostasy-and-the-dark-ages/ Truth Will Prevail Fri, 25 May 2012 03:45:22 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Richard O. http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/apostasy-and-the-dark-ages/#comment-263000 Richard O. Thu, 15 May 2008 15:06:05 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4541#comment-263000 Dan, Technically and academically in the strictest sense, you are correct. But among many LDS as well as many Protestants, the term "Dark Ages" is sometimes used to refer to the period from the end of the classical period until the beginning of the Renaisance. In terms of earlier (pre-12th century) cultural achievements, try the Book of Kells created by Celtic monks (from an area that hadn't been part of the Roman Empire), the various churches in Ravenna, Italy, Haiga Sophia in Constantinople, the Bayeaux Tapistry, the magnificent sculptural and jewelry designs of the Celts and Vikings (for example, the Sutton Ho collection in the British Museum), Caroligian and Merovingian manuscripts, etc. Was all beauty and light from 500 to 1,000 AD? No. But then are contemporary strip malls high points of world class civilization? Many places in the world were pretty amazing for their creations during this period (500-1000), and the West had some significant achievements as well. Dan,
Technically and academically in the strictest sense, you are correct.
But among many LDS as well as many Protestants, the term “Dark Ages” is sometimes used to refer to the period from the end of the classical period until the beginning of the Renaisance.
In terms of earlier (pre-12th century) cultural achievements, try the Book of Kells created by Celtic monks (from an area that hadn’t been part of the Roman Empire), the various churches in Ravenna, Italy, Haiga Sophia in Constantinople, the Bayeaux Tapistry, the magnificent sculptural and jewelry designs of the Celts and Vikings (for example, the Sutton Ho collection in the British Museum), Caroligian and Merovingian manuscripts, etc.
Was all beauty and light from 500 to 1,000 AD? No. But then are contemporary strip malls high points of world class civilization? Many places in the world were pretty amazing for their creations during this period (500-1000), and the West had some significant achievements as well.

]]> By: John Mansfield http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/apostasy-and-the-dark-ages/#comment-262997 John Mansfield Thu, 15 May 2008 14:26:42 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4541#comment-262997 It's like a magic act. Watch carefully as some cultural marvel from the 12th Century is waived before your eyes, and "Presto!" The "discouraging times" from 500-1000 A.D. disappear! It’s like a magic act. Watch carefully as some cultural marvel from the 12th Century is waived before your eyes, and “Presto!” The “discouraging times” from 500-1000 A.D. disappear!

]]> By: Dan http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/apostasy-and-the-dark-ages/#comment-262938 Dan Thu, 15 May 2008 02:19:49 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4541#comment-262938 Nate, Abbot Suger was in the High Middle Ages, in the 12th century. The "dark" period goes from about 400 AD to 1000 AD. Abbot Suger comes after that time. Nate,

Abbot Suger was in the High Middle Ages, in the 12th century. The “dark” period goes from about 400 AD to 1000 AD. Abbot Suger comes after that time.

]]> By: Nate Oman http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/apostasy-and-the-dark-ages/#comment-262937 Nate Oman Thu, 15 May 2008 01:45:44 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4541#comment-262937 I find it interesting that the Middle Ages are written off as the Dark Ages when that period gave us Abbot Suger and his development of the theology and architecture of light. The essence of Gothic Architecture was how to make bigger windows in buildings. The ulitimate goal was to practically disolve the walls and turn them into maginifenct stained glass windows. Dark Ages! Huh? Anyone who has ever stood in Chartres Cathedral or visited Mount St. Michele would probably not use the term "Dark Ages." During the mision of B.Y. and Wilford Woodruff to England (c.1840) they visited the Gothic Catherdral of Worchester. Wilford wrote about the experience in his diary. "Today we visited the noted splendor of the Worchester Catherdral. It surpasses anything mine eyes have ever beheld. It is so superior to the architecture of the present generation." Not surprizingly, the temples of pioneer Utah that were built by B.Y., John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff, all contain many Medieval architectural elements. Also note the Lion House. It comes complete with Medieval battlements! The short message? According to the architecture "built" by early Church leaders who actually saw some examples of Medieval culture, the Middle Ages had something to teach us. Copying is the sincerist form of compliment. Richard O. (sorry about the many spelling errors. I'm doomed without a spell checker.) I find it interesting that the Middle Ages are written off as the Dark Ages when that period gave us Abbot Suger and his development of the theology and architecture of light. The essence of Gothic Architecture was how to make bigger windows in buildings. The ulitimate goal was to practically disolve the walls and turn them into maginifenct stained glass windows. Dark Ages! Huh? Anyone who has ever stood in Chartres Cathedral or visited Mount St. Michele would probably not use the term “Dark Ages.”

During the mision of B.Y. and Wilford Woodruff to England (c.1840) they visited the Gothic Catherdral of Worchester. Wilford wrote about the experience in his diary. “Today we visited the noted splendor of the Worchester Catherdral. It surpasses anything mine eyes have ever beheld. It is so superior to the architecture of the present generation.” Not surprizingly, the temples of pioneer Utah that were built by B.Y., John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff, all contain many Medieval architectural elements. Also note the Lion House. It comes complete with Medieval battlements!

The short message? According to the architecture “built” by early Church leaders who actually saw some examples of Medieval culture, the Middle Ages had something to teach us. Copying is the sincerist form of compliment.
Richard O. (sorry about the many spelling errors. I’m doomed without a spell checker.)

]]> By: Jeremiah J. http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/apostasy-and-the-dark-ages/#comment-262925 Jeremiah J. Thu, 15 May 2008 00:43:57 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4541#comment-262925 I'm not sure how many people checked out the Bitton piece, but I haven't seen anyone notice that Bitton seems to want to abandon not just the idea that the period between 500-1000 was in some sense "dark", but the whole idea of making evaluative judgments of different cultures and different time periods within the same culture: "But a period of darkness? Please. That designation helps not at all in understanding. If I am not mistaken, anthropologists studiously avoid such value judgments as they study different tribal societies." It's also kind of silly to assert that by calling some part of the Middle Ages dark we are therefore "defaming millions of people". This is a kind parochialism contemporary academics are especially prone to. The particular subject we happen to study can't possibly be in any sense unsophisticated, suspect, or worse than any other and no one who hasn't taken college courses and read academic books in our discipline is going to imply otherwise, or they'll get a rude awakening. I’m not sure how many people checked out the Bitton piece, but I haven’t seen anyone notice that Bitton seems to want to abandon not just the idea that the period between 500-1000 was in some sense “dark”, but the whole idea of making evaluative judgments of different cultures and different time periods within the same culture:

“But a period of darkness? Please. That designation helps not at all in understanding. If I am not mistaken, anthropologists studiously avoid such value judgments as they study different tribal societies.”

It’s also kind of silly to assert that by calling some part of the Middle Ages dark we are therefore “defaming millions of people”.

This is a kind parochialism contemporary academics are especially prone to. The particular subject we happen to study can’t possibly be in any sense unsophisticated, suspect, or worse than any other and no one who hasn’t taken college courses and read academic books in our discipline is going to imply otherwise, or they’ll get a rude awakening.

]]> By: Bob http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/apostasy-and-the-dark-ages/#comment-262873 Bob Wed, 14 May 2008 14:11:06 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4541#comment-262873 #61:The difference I sense between #60 &#61, is that David takes 'facts', and come to his 'conclusion', (or non-conclusion ) statement, that is not meant to take us anywhere. But you take 'facts', and come to an assumption. ( a leadership lost), which is to set groundwork to move us to somewhere, ( a Restoration of leadership), or your 'conclusion statement. #61:The difference I sense between #60 &#61, is that David takes ‘facts’, and come to his ‘conclusion’, (or non-conclusion ) statement, that is not meant to take us anywhere. But you take ‘facts’, and come to an assumption. ( a leadership lost), which is to set groundwork to move us to somewhere, ( a Restoration of leadership), or your ‘conclusion statement.

]]> By: Ugly Mahana http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/apostasy-and-the-dark-ages/#comment-262871 Ugly Mahana Wed, 14 May 2008 13:12:43 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4541#comment-262871 Wilifried (#49), well stated. Wilifried (#49), well stated.

]]> By: Wilfried http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/apostasy-and-the-dark-ages/#comment-262870 Wilfried Wed, 14 May 2008 12:56:28 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4541#comment-262870 David (60), I think it is kind of difficult to compare as "bad behavior" on the one hand centuries of historically proven horrors, perpetrated by scores of religious leaders on various levels, up to the top, to torture and murder tens of thousands, and on the other hand controversial allegations of personal misconduct -- even the full "laundry list" -- told about Joseph Smith. Still it is everyone's right to draw his own conclusions as to divinely sanctioned authority in the one or the other case. It's part of faith and we recognize the right of every person to believe according to his conscience. I drew my own conclusions. David (60), I think it is kind of difficult to compare as “bad behavior” on the one hand centuries of historically proven horrors, perpetrated by scores of religious leaders on various levels, up to the top, to torture and murder tens of thousands, and on the other hand controversial allegations of personal misconduct — even the full “laundry list” — told about Joseph Smith. Still it is everyone’s right to draw his own conclusions as to divinely sanctioned authority in the one or the other case. It’s part of faith and we recognize the right of every person to believe according to his conscience. I drew my own conclusions.

]]> By: Buckley's Ghost http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/apostasy-and-the-dark-ages/#comment-262861 Buckley's Ghost Wed, 14 May 2008 06:02:19 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4541#comment-262861 When the term "Dark Ages" are used by missionaries during teaching or members in a talk we should not be so quick to grind our teeth. The Age of Enlightenment was a radical political change whose foundation was in reason antithetical to certain religious perspectives . Let us not get hung up too much on the language and a simple misunderstaning of details. Locke, Voltaire, Kant,Hobbes, Hume, Rossaeu and a host of others believed that the "Dark Ages" were just that, dark. The Golden Age of Islam is a term like the "Dark Ages" whose name implies a reality that quite frankly didn't occur even though people desperatley want it to be true. When the term “Dark Ages” are used by missionaries during teaching or members in a talk we should not be so quick to grind our teeth. The Age of Enlightenment was a radical political change whose foundation was in reason antithetical to certain religious perspectives . Let us not get hung up too much on the language and a simple misunderstaning of details. Locke, Voltaire, Kant,Hobbes, Hume, Rossaeu and a host of others believed that the “Dark Ages” were just that, dark. The Golden Age of Islam is a term like the “Dark Ages” whose name implies a reality that quite frankly didn’t occur even though people desperatley want it to be true.

]]> By: David Clark http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/apostasy-and-the-dark-ages/#comment-262859 David Clark Wed, 14 May 2008 03:24:49 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4541#comment-262859 <i>The patent misuses of ecclesiastical authority from Rome over the centuries, the bloody persecutions and wars against non-Catholic Christians (think only of the Albigenses), the horrific trials and executions of tens of thousands of “heretics” — there is no way one could honestly assume such leaders still had divinely sanctioned authority.</i> I am very uncomfortable in saying that bad behavior equals loss of divinely sanctioned authority. It looks suspiciously like arguments for Joseph Smith being a fallen prophet. I won't rehearse the laundry list here because it's not the place. The bottom line is that one can honestly assume that Catholic leaders still had divinely sanctioned authority (assuming one is Catholic), just like we Mormons honestly assume that our leaders have divinely sanctioned authority. The patent misuses of ecclesiastical authority from Rome over the centuries, the bloody persecutions and wars against non-Catholic Christians (think only of the Albigenses), the horrific trials and executions of tens of thousands of “heretics” — there is no way one could honestly assume such leaders still had divinely sanctioned authority.

I am very uncomfortable in saying that bad behavior equals loss of divinely sanctioned authority. It looks suspiciously like arguments for Joseph Smith being a fallen prophet. I won’t rehearse the laundry list here because it’s not the place. The bottom line is that one can honestly assume that Catholic leaders still had divinely sanctioned authority (assuming one is Catholic), just like we Mormons honestly assume that our leaders have divinely sanctioned authority.

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