Comments on: Prophets and textual criticism http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/prophets-and-textual-criticism/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 12 Feb 2012 07:57:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Rick Grunder http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/prophets-and-textual-criticism/#comment-261910 Rick Grunder Fri, 02 May 2008 20:02:58 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4520#comment-261910 Nicely stated, Jonathan. Indeed, these "Mormon" parallel ideas crept through the culture not only by being read, but through more subtle and often indefinable processes which occurred in art, singing, gossip, storytelling, preaching and praying, and through other aspects of a particularly active system of oral tradition which had to flourish then even more powerfully than in today's mass-media-communicated world. And, as is still the case today, the appearance of an idea in written and printed sources generally suggested the presence of that idea already circulating orally somewhere - if not everywhere - in the environment. Books like View of the Hebrews were thus no more causes than they were indicators: not necessarily contributing directly to the mind of Joseph Smith, but standing as evidence that the thoughts which he proclaimed were waiting in the air. Such works do not presume that "Joseph Smith once read us," so much as they insist that "we were already there." Nicely stated, Jonathan. Indeed, these “Mormon” parallel ideas crept through the culture not only by being read, but through more subtle and often indefinable processes which occurred in art, singing, gossip, storytelling, preaching and praying, and through other aspects of a particularly active system of oral tradition which had to flourish then even more powerfully than in today’s mass-media-communicated world. And, as is still the case today, the appearance of an idea in written and printed sources generally suggested the presence of that idea already circulating orally somewhere – if not everywhere – in the environment. Books like View of the Hebrews were thus no more causes than they were indicators: not necessarily contributing directly to the mind of Joseph Smith, but standing as evidence that the thoughts which he proclaimed were waiting in the air. Such works do not presume that “Joseph Smith once read us,” so much as they insist that “we were already there.”

]]> By: Jonathan Green http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/prophets-and-textual-criticism/#comment-261904 Jonathan Green Fri, 02 May 2008 19:01:15 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4520#comment-261904 CC, while that's possible, in my limited understanding of early 19th c. American thought, it's not necessary for VotH to exist. That is, if one is going to assume that Joseph Smith picked up ideas about the origin of American Indians from his environment, there were other sources he could have turned to. CC, while that’s possible, in my limited understanding of early 19th c. American thought, it’s not necessary for VotH to exist. That is, if one is going to assume that Joseph Smith picked up ideas about the origin of American Indians from his environment, there were other sources he could have turned to.

]]> By: California Condor http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/prophets-and-textual-criticism/#comment-261863 California Condor Fri, 02 May 2008 09:08:16 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4520#comment-261863 Thanks, Jonathan. Mormon apologists point out that a lot of the details between the Book of Mormon and VotH are different. So it's clear that Joseph Smith probably didn't engage in straight up plagiarism. But what if Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith had never even read VotH, but only heard about it, thought it was a cool idea, and then made up their own version with its own twists and details? This could account for the broad similarities (and vastly different details) between the two books. I can even envision a scenario where God inspired Ethan Smith to write VotH, thus perhaps inspiring Oliver Cowdery to have the general ideas of the Book of Mormon, in turn preparing Joseph Smith to receive revelations that became the Book of Mormon. Of course, a skeptic could just say that Cowdery and Joseph Smith just created another version of VotH. Thanks, Jonathan. Mormon apologists point out that a lot of the details between the Book of Mormon and VotH are different. So it’s clear that Joseph Smith probably didn’t engage in straight up plagiarism. But what if Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith had never even read VotH, but only heard about it, thought it was a cool idea, and then made up their own version with its own twists and details? This could account for the broad similarities (and vastly different details) between the two books.

I can even envision a scenario where God inspired Ethan Smith to write VotH, thus perhaps inspiring Oliver Cowdery to have the general ideas of the Book of Mormon, in turn preparing Joseph Smith to receive revelations that became the Book of Mormon.

Of course, a skeptic could just say that Cowdery and Joseph Smith just created another version of VotH.

]]> By: Jonathan Green http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/prophets-and-textual-criticism/#comment-261844 Jonathan Green Fri, 02 May 2008 06:08:59 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4520#comment-261844 CC, here is a link to "View of the Hebrews", chosen at random rather than after considering the quality of the edition: http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/voh/voh_main.shtml Go take a look. Compare with the Book of Mormon. Are the parallels significant? Do they concern things that could have been picked up many other places, or only from VotH? CC, here is a link to “View of the Hebrews”, chosen at random rather than after considering the quality of the edition: http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/voh/voh_main.shtml

Go take a look. Compare with the Book of Mormon. Are the parallels significant? Do they concern things that could have been picked up many other places, or only from VotH?

]]> By: California Condor http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/prophets-and-textual-criticism/#comment-261830 California Condor Fri, 02 May 2008 04:54:48 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4520#comment-261830 Blake, Kevin, Rick, Thanks for the links. It appears that at the very least, the Book of Mormon was not a wholesale point-for-point rip off of "View of the Hebrews." But a skeptic could make a strong argument that VotH inspired Joseph Smith to make his own version of the story (perhaps in cahoots with Oliver Cowdery). Blake, Kevin, Rick,

Thanks for the links. It appears that at the very least, the Book of Mormon was not a wholesale point-for-point rip off of “View of the Hebrews.” But a skeptic could make a strong argument that VotH inspired Joseph Smith to make his own version of the story (perhaps in cahoots with Oliver Cowdery).

]]> By: Kari http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/prophets-and-textual-criticism/#comment-261577 Kari Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:51:25 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4520#comment-261577 Raymond, you pose an interesting thought experiment. But if this is such a valid way to study ancient documents, by studying a "translation", why is it that only Mormons are the ones doing this with regards to the BoM? Or are there non-LDS scholars doing this as a way to "understand" or "re-construct" the ancient text Joseph claimed to have had, yet really didn't need to have present during the process? And if this is a valid way to study documents, can you give me examples of other texts that are being, or have been, studied in such a manner? I ask these questions, because I genuinely don't know and would appreciate the knowledge. With regards to this your thought experiment, I would expect a scholar in 1900, who had time to translate, would also have time to transcribe, or even possibly photograph such a find, and keep such supporting documentation with his translation. Why is there no such thing with regards to the plates? Joseph made facsimiles from the papyrus used to generate the Book of Abraham, and drawings of the Kinderhook plates were included in his journal. These were minor things; certainly something as important as the gold plates should have generated a transcription of characters or a charcoal rubbing or two. Anyway, I only bring this up to reiterate my point that ultimately one has to decide these things as a matter of faith and belief in the Joseph Smith story. Raymond, you pose an interesting thought experiment. But if this is such a valid way to study ancient documents, by studying a “translation”, why is it that only Mormons are the ones doing this with regards to the BoM? Or are there non-LDS scholars doing this as a way to “understand” or “re-construct” the ancient text Joseph claimed to have had, yet really didn’t need to have present during the process? And if this is a valid way to study documents, can you give me examples of other texts that are being, or have been, studied in such a manner? I ask these questions, because I genuinely don’t know and would appreciate the knowledge.

With regards to this your thought experiment, I would expect a scholar in 1900, who had time to translate, would also have time to transcribe, or even possibly photograph such a find, and keep such supporting documentation with his translation. Why is there no such thing with regards to the plates? Joseph made facsimiles from the papyrus used to generate the Book of Abraham, and drawings of the Kinderhook plates were included in his journal. These were minor things; certainly something as important as the gold plates should have generated a transcription of characters or a charcoal rubbing or two.

Anyway, I only bring this up to reiterate my point that ultimately one has to decide these things as a matter of faith and belief in the Joseph Smith story.

]]> By: Rick Grunder http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/prophets-and-textual-criticism/#comment-261551 Rick Grunder Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:26:04 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4520#comment-261551 From the tenor of recent comments, I fear that we might leave California Condor with the impression that Ethan Smith's "View of the Hebrews" has been dismissed and dispatched once and for all. However, writers on both sides work too hard, and miss the forest for the trees. To agonize over the countless ways in which this one Mormon parallel book is NOT the Book of Mormon, is surely just as short-sighted and narrow as to suggest that Joseph Smith or Oliver Cowdery hovered eagerly over "View of the Hebrews," somehow using it as a guide to produce the Book of Mormon. Ethan Smith's book popularized Hebrew Indian-origin theories, then dramatized a need to carry the gospel to Native Americans whom Smith saw as part of the posterity of Israel. These concepts had already emerged over a period of centuries, but Smith lent them additional focus and theological gravity in an interesting place and time. Unaware that another edition of "View of the Hebrews" was already in the press, an 1825 reviewer in central New York State confessed that he had traditionally viewed such ideas as "rather fanciful," supposing "that there were but few resemblances" between ancient Hebrews and modern Native Americans. "But we have been surprised," he conceded, "to find so many resemblances as this book exhibits, and feel utterly unable to account for them on any other supposition than that here are indeed the long lost Ten Tribes. We think, however, that it would be an improvement in a second edition, which we hope will be called for, if the evidence of that fact were summed up a little more distinctly, and if the Indian customs and traditions which are supposed to be of Hebrew origin were more distinctly compared with the similar customs and institutions of the Hebrews, and at the same time distinguished from those which were patriarchal. Such an improvement would be easy for Mr. Smith to make, and would exhibit the evidence in a clearer and more convincing light." ("REVIEW. View of the Hebrews; by Ethan Smith, Pastor of a church in Poultney, Vermont. Poultney: Smith & Shute. 12mo. pp. 183." The Utica Christian Repository 4 [May 1825], 149 [reviewing the 1823 first edition].) It was while writing his much more famous "Dissertation on the Prophecies," 1811, that Ethan Smith first felt "affected" by some Native American relevance in Isaiah – the same prophet who might feel so curiously ponderous near the beginning of the Book of Mormon. "Ho thou nation of the last days," admonished Smith in 1825, "shadowing with thy wings of liberty and peace; pity, instruct, and save my ancient people and brethren; especially that outcast branch of them, who were the natives of your soil." . . . . . "Teach them the story of their ancestors; the economy of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Sublimate their views above the savage pursuits of the forests. Elevate them above the wilds of barbarism and death, by showing them what has been done for their nation; and what is yet to be done by the God of their fathers, in the line of his promise. Teach them their ancient history; their former blessings; their being cast away; the occasion of it, and the promises of their return. Tell them the time draws near, and they must now return to the God of their salvation. Tell them their return is to be as life from the dead to the Gentile nations. Tell them what their ancient fathers the prophets were inspired to predict in their behalf; and the charge here given for their restoration. Assure them this talk of an ancient prophet, is for them, . . ." (Ethan Smith, View of the Hebrews [Poultney, Vermont: Smith & Shute, 1825], [247], 249) If "View of the Hebrews" were so utterly irrelevant and uncompelling as some Book of Mormon defenders propose, then surely B. H. Roberts would have been bright enough to see that for himself, and he would not have exhibited so much concern over the book as he did, and for so long as he did. Yet Roberts was writing during a period when "View of the Hebrews" appeared to be an intriguing anomaly and a significant challenge which had to be addressed particularly, rather than merely an important example within a vast genre of Mormon parallel thought which flourished in Joseph Smith's day. If we want to get out of the woods and see the wider terrain, we must first appreciate each bush or tree for what it was, but then find the maturity to rise above the tangles to comprehend the larger culture of Joseph's world as the most propitious of all settings for the emergence of earliest Mormonism. From the tenor of recent comments, I fear that we might leave California Condor with the impression that Ethan Smith’s “View of the Hebrews” has been dismissed and dispatched once and for all. However, writers on both sides work too hard, and miss the forest for the trees. To agonize over the countless ways in which this one Mormon parallel book is NOT the Book of Mormon, is surely just as short-sighted and narrow as to suggest that Joseph Smith or Oliver Cowdery hovered eagerly over “View of the Hebrews,” somehow using it as a guide to produce the Book of Mormon.

Ethan Smith’s book popularized Hebrew Indian-origin theories, then dramatized a need to carry the gospel to Native Americans whom Smith saw as part of the posterity of Israel. These concepts had already emerged over a period of centuries, but Smith lent them additional focus and theological gravity in an interesting place and time. Unaware that another edition of “View of the Hebrews” was already in the press, an 1825 reviewer in central New York State confessed that he had traditionally viewed such ideas as “rather fanciful,” supposing “that there were but few resemblances” between ancient Hebrews and modern Native Americans. “But we have been surprised,” he conceded,

“to find so many resemblances as this book exhibits, and feel utterly unable to account for them on any other supposition than that here are indeed the long lost Ten Tribes. We think, however, that it would be an improvement in a second edition, which we hope will be called for, if the evidence of that fact were summed up a little more distinctly, and if the Indian customs and traditions which are supposed to be of Hebrew origin were more distinctly compared with the similar customs and institutions of the Hebrews, and at the same time distinguished from those which were patriarchal. Such an improvement would be easy for Mr. Smith to make, and would exhibit the evidence in a clearer and more convincing light.” (“REVIEW. View of the Hebrews; by Ethan Smith, Pastor of a church in Poultney, Vermont. Poultney: Smith & Shute. 12mo. pp. 183.” The Utica Christian Repository 4 [May 1825], 149 [reviewing the 1823 first edition].)

It was while writing his much more famous “Dissertation on the Prophecies,” 1811, that Ethan Smith first felt “affected” by some Native American relevance in Isaiah – the same prophet who might feel so curiously ponderous near the beginning of the Book of Mormon. “Ho thou nation of the last days,” admonished Smith in 1825,

“shadowing with thy wings of liberty and peace; pity, instruct, and save my ancient people and brethren; especially that outcast branch of them, who were the natives of your soil.”
. . . . .

“Teach them the story of their ancestors; the economy of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Sublimate their views above the savage pursuits of the forests. Elevate them above the wilds of barbarism and death, by showing them what has been done for their nation; and what is yet to be done by the God of their fathers, in the line of his promise. Teach them their ancient history; their former blessings; their being cast away; the occasion of it, and the promises of their return. Tell them the time draws near, and they must now return to the God of their salvation. Tell them their return is to be as life from the dead to the Gentile nations. Tell them what their ancient fathers the prophets were inspired to predict in their behalf; and the charge here given for their restoration. Assure them this talk of an ancient prophet, is for them, . . .” (Ethan Smith, View of the Hebrews [Poultney, Vermont: Smith & Shute, 1825], [247], 249)

If “View of the Hebrews” were so utterly irrelevant and uncompelling as some Book of Mormon defenders propose, then surely B. H. Roberts would have been bright enough to see that for himself, and he would not have exhibited so much concern over the book as he did, and for so long as he did. Yet Roberts was writing during a period when “View of the Hebrews” appeared to be an intriguing anomaly and a significant challenge which had to be addressed particularly, rather than merely an important example within a vast genre of Mormon parallel thought which flourished in Joseph Smith’s day. If we want to get out of the woods and see the wider terrain, we must first appreciate each bush or tree for what it was, but then find the maturity to rise above the tangles to comprehend the larger culture of Joseph’s world as the most propitious of all settings for the emergence of earliest Mormonism.

]]> By: Kevin Christensen http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/prophets-and-textual-criticism/#comment-261244 Kevin Christensen Tue, 29 Apr 2008 18:06:25 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4520#comment-261244 Regarding View of the Hebrews and Roberts, besides Blake's useful discussion, John Welch did the most detailed response in his 1985 FARMS Preliminary Report, "Finding Answers to B. H. Roberts Questions and An Unparallel," 41 pages. It's not online, but easily obtainable from FARMS, and still worth reading. BYU Religious Studies also published the 1825 edition of View of the Hebrews. Andrew Hedges comments on that edition, and its implications for the Book of Mormon, here: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=247 More recently, John Gee has offered some additional fresh perspectives on Ethan Smith here: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/bookschapter.php?bookid=8&chapid=66 And of course, Grant Palmer deals with the issue by quoting some gems from Roberts, and then ignoring all subsequent LDS research on the topic. What a guy. Kevin Christensen Pittsburgh, PA Regarding View of the Hebrews and Roberts, besides Blake’s useful discussion, John Welch did the most detailed response in his 1985 FARMS Preliminary Report, “Finding Answers to B. H. Roberts Questions and An Unparallel,” 41 pages. It’s not online, but easily obtainable from FARMS, and still worth reading. BYU Religious Studies also published the 1825 edition of View of the Hebrews. Andrew Hedges comments on that edition, and its implications for the Book of Mormon, here:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=247

More recently, John Gee has offered some additional fresh perspectives on Ethan Smith here:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/bookschapter.php?bookid=8&chapid=66

And of course, Grant Palmer deals with the issue by quoting some gems from Roberts, and then ignoring all subsequent LDS research on the topic. What a guy.

Kevin Christensen
Pittsburgh, PA

]]> By: Blake http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/prophets-and-textual-criticism/#comment-261226 Blake Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:28:07 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4520#comment-261226 CC: I am not impressed by the supposed similarities between VofH and BofM. I address the supposed similarities and important differences in my article on the Expansion Theory which you can find by going to my website by clicking on my name here. You might also want to check out: http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/bom_plagerize_view.htm http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/emmain.asp?number=196 http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=44 The text of the VofH written as a scholarly text has almost nothing in common with the message of the BofM as I read it. CC: I am not impressed by the supposed similarities between VofH and BofM. I address the supposed similarities and important differences in my article on the Expansion Theory which you can find by going to my website by clicking on my name here. You might also want to check out: http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/bom_plagerize_view.htm
http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/emmain.asp?number=196
http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=44

The text of the VofH written as a scholarly text has almost nothing in common with the message of the BofM as I read it.

]]> By: California Condor http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/prophets-and-textual-criticism/#comment-261155 California Condor Tue, 29 Apr 2008 05:32:25 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4520#comment-261155 Stephen M (Ethesis), Actually, from what I've read on the Internet View of the Hebrews appears to have quite a bit in common with the Book of Mormon. That's why I asked if anyone has done an analysis of it. Stephen M (Ethesis),

Actually, from what I’ve read on the Internet View of the Hebrews appears to have quite a bit in common with the Book of Mormon. That’s why I asked if anyone has done an analysis of it.

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