Yes, there are truly EVIL people in the world. I was inflicted by one through my teen years. I can\’t think of a way to describe it. I don\’t think she would have killed anyone, then again… They don\’t play by any rules I can understand. Demonic comes to mind. Causing pain for the purpose of causing pain.

I came away from it scarred. As a result, there are some areas of my life I can lie convincingly about; after all, I witnessed a master at work. My wife can ask me direct questions and I can lie to her about it without even a hesitation of breath. Weeks later, when I tell her the truth, she comments on how scary that is.

Am I proud of it? Perversely, yes, and also ashamed. It is a power.

I am guilty of naively allowing people to use my good manners to coerce me. Odd how I can be manipulative and be manipulated by my sense of honor. It probably has to do with hiding who I think I am by wanting to keep up appearances.

Post 78 – Faith in the system.

We tried to tell a church authority what was going on with that aforementioned evil person. It failed. The judge in Israel didn\’t believe us.

Time has made me reflect on what happened over and over. My realization is as follows. The Gospel is true. This is the Church of Jesus Christ, the one true church. The members of it are just people. They make mistakes, they are sinners, they don\’t always do things right. Some, as is the point of this article, are dangerous wolves.

So what is your point is saying “I would probably be even more skeptical than he in my approach if ever placed in a position to judge someone who has committed abuses — sexual or physical — against a child. And the LAST thing I would do, would be to place them in a position to ever harm that child, or any other child, ever again.”?

What is the relevance of your sentencing opinion? Wouldn’t you consult and then follow the Spirit?

You, yourself, cited that the officers of the Church need to use the Spirit in order to handle these things. If it cannot help them to weigh all the evidence, in order to determine the truth of the situation, then what is the point?

Your responses have become circulus in demonstrando, ad infinitum, and so I’m finished replying unless any new and interesting material of importance enters the discussion.

Rob, an accusation is a very different situation than a creditable confession. In the case of an accusation not accompanied by a confession, one does not KNOW that the person being judged actually committed the sin.

As I said, I can only speak to the situations I have been directly involved with. Anecdotally, I am aware of church disciplinary councils decisions that have been overturned on appeal, and an actual formal apology given to the individual who was the subject of the council. I am also aware of foot-dragging in some well publicized abuse cases, where action should have been taken sooner.

I also can say that in some church leadership positions, I wish that I could say that every decision, every calling, was inspired. But they weren’t always that way, and I hope I learned something from those circumstances. In reality, it may be a miracle that as many of us still go to church as we do. But ultimately, my testimony, while certainly affected by others around me, is not dependent on them. Part of the paradox of having a lay church leadership at the local levels is that most of us will not only be offended by or question the judgment of our leaders, but we also get to be the offenders and poor judges as well.

I have someone very close to me that has left activity in the church over church discipline that appears to have overstepped it’s bounds (involving a 3rd party). So your question is also real to me, and painful.

I wish that all of us had the assurance that our lives and our decisions were always in line with gospel principles and scripture, but it’s not. And then we get up and go on, learning how to forgive, and be forgiven also. As we seek mercy in our own lives, perhaps we will see more justice as well.

I guess that the miracle here is that I still go to church even though no longer believe that Stake presidents and certain Area Authorities are inspired.

I was attempting to learn how you (and Ray) conclude that we KNOW they have actually abused children.

You’re speaking of hypothetical situations. (While also arguing that this must be handled in a case-by-case basis) There is no answer which will suffice for you. The fact is, someone makes an accusation OR someone comes forward to their Church Leadership, and it is up to the best efforts of that Church Leadership to do what they can to correct the situation.

I can only say that in my limited involvement in the church disciplinary system, that I have seen miracles occur, and have felt the spirit more strongly than just about anywhere else. I can’t speak for all instances, but in every instance that I have been involved with both at a ward or stake level, the inspiration has been clear, almost a palpable presence. I hear of situations like you describe, but they are, as in the case of all disciplinary councils, hearsay, as it is rare that they are ever spoken of outside the confines of the council. In every one that I have been involved with, I have been satisfied that the outcome has been confirmed by the spirit.

Ditto to what Raymond says in # 80. Spectral evidence is not well received. Accusations do not normally bring about a disciplinary council, unless there is significant evidence of the wrongdoing, and a real danger to others or the reputation of the church.