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	<title>Comments on: Egyptian Brass Plates and a naming contest</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/egyptian-brass-plates-and-a-naming-contest/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 00:34:32 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Doc</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/egyptian-brass-plates-and-a-naming-contest/#comment-260386</link>
		<dc:creator>Doc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:43:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4515#comment-260386</guid>
		<description>Would you consider &quot;newly noticed nugget&quot;? 
or maybe &quot;mini-piphany&quot;
between the lines
canonical cues
scriptural seasoning
viewed in verse
in verse insights
tidbit of holy writ-- ouch, okay, I&#039;ll quit while I&#039;m ahead</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would you consider &#8220;newly noticed nugget&#8221;?<br />
or maybe &#8220;mini-piphany&#8221;<br />
between the lines<br />
canonical cues<br />
scriptural seasoning<br />
viewed in verse<br />
in verse insights<br />
tidbit of holy writ&#8211; ouch, okay, I&#8217;ll quit while I&#8217;m ahead</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/egyptian-brass-plates-and-a-naming-contest/#comment-260339</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4515#comment-260339</guid>
		<description>&quot;Snippets from the Scriptures&quot; or just &quot;Scriptural Snippets&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Snippets from the Scriptures&#8221; or just &#8220;Scriptural Snippets&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Frank McIntyre</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/egyptian-brass-plates-and-a-naming-contest/#comment-260336</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank McIntyre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4515#comment-260336</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the many interesting comments!  This is not my area and so it is interesting to hear ideas new to me.

As for the contest, I&#039;ll have to mull it over.  I don&#039;t think I see any clear winners yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the many interesting comments!  This is not my area and so it is interesting to hear ideas new to me.</p>
<p>As for the contest, I&#8217;ll have to mull it over.  I don&#8217;t think I see any clear winners yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/egyptian-brass-plates-and-a-naming-contest/#comment-260317</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:53:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4515#comment-260317</guid>
		<description>Some have also questioned whether various cyphers used especially in economics might not have been the script used.  I think this becomes more difficult if it applied to the brass plates.  But it makes sense for the gold plates.  Further I have to admit that there are some remarkable affinities between the Anthon transcript and later cyphers from around 100 BC - 300 AD.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some have also questioned whether various cyphers used especially in economics might not have been the script used.  I think this becomes more difficult if it applied to the brass plates.  But it makes sense for the gold plates.  Further I have to admit that there are some remarkable affinities between the Anthon transcript and later cyphers from around 100 BC &#8211; 300 AD.</p>
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		<title>By: NJensen</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/egyptian-brass-plates-and-a-naming-contest/#comment-260121</link>
		<dc:creator>NJensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4515#comment-260121</guid>
		<description>How about \&quot;Signs and Reasons?\&quot;

Does anybody know when Demotic Egyptian began to be used?  I\&#039;ve always found the transcribed characters to look more like representations than actual figures from hieroglyphs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about \&#8221;Signs and Reasons?\&#8221;</p>
<p>Does anybody know when Demotic Egyptian began to be used?  I\&#8217;ve always found the transcribed characters to look more like representations than actual figures from hieroglyphs.</p>
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		<title>By: Raymond Takashi Swenson</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/egyptian-brass-plates-and-a-naming-contest/#comment-260093</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond Takashi Swenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4515#comment-260093</guid>
		<description>How about &quot;Timeless Seasonings&quot;, subtitled &quot;Let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly&quot;, D&amp;C 121:45)?  

Concerning the observation: 

The fact that the brass (really bronze) plates were a lineage record kept by descendants of Joseph (Nephi makes a point of sayng that both Lehi and Laban were &quot;Josephites&quot; and Lehi finds his genealogy on the plates) suggests they may have originated in a version of Genesis kept by Joseph, prime minister of Egypt.  One assumes that the Israelites living in Egypt maintained scribal skills in that language and its various scripts among some of the most educated, including Moses.  

Perhaps each of the tribes originally kept a record, some of them lost with events like the Assyrian conquest of the Ten Tribes.   Since Zenos&#039; parable of the olive trees prophesies of planting branches of Israel in distance places, and the Savior went to visit at least one other of them, it suggests at least one other dispersed branch of Israel also had with it its own lineage history to preserve its knowledge of God.  On the other hand, there appears to have been no such record in the hands of the &quot;Mulekite&quot; group (the official record of Judah likely went to Babylon, perhaps even early on in the first captivity that took Daniel and Ezekiel).  

The alphabet of the Phoenicians is understood to be derived from a syllabary (in which a single symbol stands for a consonant+vowel combination, e.g. something looking like an eye atop two stepping legs being used to represent the sound &quot;Ra&quot; and then &quot;R&quot;) in which each symbol was used for its sound value rather than its ideographic meaning.  &quot;Aleph&quot; (ox) and &quot;Bet&quot; (house) are among the easiest in which to see this transformation.  All &quot;alphabets&quot; are thus a &quot;reformed Egyptian&quot; writing system.  

Since the original records were probably written (by Joseph?) in Egyptian script, it was necessary to learn Egyptian to read the record, and then it was natural to make additions in the same language, if for no other purpose than to stay in practice (the way Hugh Nibley kept notecards in multiple languages).  

A parallel evolution in writing systems happened in Japan, where the Chinese ideographic script was adapted (after 600 AD) to create some 46 symbols for syllables (ka, ki, ku, ke, ko, etc.), which are used in combination with Chinese characters to show the many Japanese participles and verb endings.    The Chinese characters are sometimes read with Chinese-derived pronunciations, while at other times they are read with the Japanese words matching the ideas they represent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about &#8220;Timeless Seasonings&#8221;, subtitled &#8220;Let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly&#8221;, D&amp;C 121:45)?  </p>
<p>Concerning the observation: </p>
<p>The fact that the brass (really bronze) plates were a lineage record kept by descendants of Joseph (Nephi makes a point of sayng that both Lehi and Laban were &#8220;Josephites&#8221; and Lehi finds his genealogy on the plates) suggests they may have originated in a version of Genesis kept by Joseph, prime minister of Egypt.  One assumes that the Israelites living in Egypt maintained scribal skills in that language and its various scripts among some of the most educated, including Moses.  </p>
<p>Perhaps each of the tribes originally kept a record, some of them lost with events like the Assyrian conquest of the Ten Tribes.   Since Zenos&#8217; parable of the olive trees prophesies of planting branches of Israel in distance places, and the Savior went to visit at least one other of them, it suggests at least one other dispersed branch of Israel also had with it its own lineage history to preserve its knowledge of God.  On the other hand, there appears to have been no such record in the hands of the &#8220;Mulekite&#8221; group (the official record of Judah likely went to Babylon, perhaps even early on in the first captivity that took Daniel and Ezekiel).  </p>
<p>The alphabet of the Phoenicians is understood to be derived from a syllabary (in which a single symbol stands for a consonant+vowel combination, e.g. something looking like an eye atop two stepping legs being used to represent the sound &#8220;Ra&#8221; and then &#8220;R&#8221;) in which each symbol was used for its sound value rather than its ideographic meaning.  &#8220;Aleph&#8221; (ox) and &#8220;Bet&#8221; (house) are among the easiest in which to see this transformation.  All &#8220;alphabets&#8221; are thus a &#8220;reformed Egyptian&#8221; writing system.  </p>
<p>Since the original records were probably written (by Joseph?) in Egyptian script, it was necessary to learn Egyptian to read the record, and then it was natural to make additions in the same language, if for no other purpose than to stay in practice (the way Hugh Nibley kept notecards in multiple languages).  </p>
<p>A parallel evolution in writing systems happened in Japan, where the Chinese ideographic script was adapted (after 600 AD) to create some 46 symbols for syllables (ka, ki, ku, ke, ko, etc.), which are used in combination with Chinese characters to show the many Japanese participles and verb endings.    The Chinese characters are sometimes read with Chinese-derived pronunciations, while at other times they are read with the Japanese words matching the ideas they represent.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Christensen</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/egyptian-brass-plates-and-a-naming-contest/#comment-260092</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Christensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4515#comment-260092</guid>
		<description>Ben McGuire has an excellent paper on the extensive ties between Egypt and Judea in Lehi&#039;s day:

http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/LehiEgypt.pdf

My personal theory is that the plates were prepared in during the reign of Jehoiakim. He had been installed as a puppet leader by the Egyptians after they defeated Josiah. Diplomatic ties with Egypt would necessarily be closer then that before, or after.  It turns out that the Septuagint itself was commissioned by a later King of Egypt, Ptolomy II, for the Egyptian Royal Library.  I think it makes sense to see the plates as commissioned for the same purpose by an earlier Pharoh.  The contents of the plates, including prophecies of Jeremiah, argues for a late date.  Jermiah was not called until the 13th year of Josiah&#039;s reign.  His earlier discourses strike me as critical of the Reformers, and unlikely to be taken seriously by Josiah&#039;s people. And his most notable public sermon was his temple discourse given after Jehoiakim was installed, and Josiah&#039;s reform in disarray.  And had they been done for Josiah, the Deuteronomist reforms would be more favorably viewed. Ben also sees evidence that the Book of Mormon consistently refers to a proto-Deuteronomy, rather than the current MT.  And his FAIR paper on the interesting disposition of allusion to the David and Goliath story points to other earlier sources than the MT.  Sorenson argues for a Northern tradition influence, an E source.  Noel Reynolds argues that the Book of Mormon presupposes a Genesis more like Moses and the MT.  Margaret Barker told Kevin Barney that the key to everything is what is missing from Genesis. Also, Nibley noted that the Book of Mormon shows much affinity with Egyptian names and situations.  (See &quot;Something to Move Mountains&quot; by Boyd Peterson in JBMS 6:2)  And so we get Egyptian language plates done at that time to enhance the Eguptian library, and to provide a resource for training diplomats. William Hamblin has shown that the oldest extant Biblical quotations are written on metal in Jerusalem 600 BCE, and the next oldest are in Egyptian.  It&#039;s the right kind of thing to appear at that time and place.. Then, after the Egyptians were defeated by Nebudchadnezzar, with diplomatic ties severed, the plates waited in the Treasury for Nephi to come by with an alternate disposition.

There is a very good paper by William Eggington on how nicely Reformed Egyptian would function as a high language.  &quot;Oral and Literate Cultures in the Book of Mormon.&quot;  By using conceptual ideograms, the spoken language could change, while the written meanings remained relatively constant.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen
Pittsburgh, PA</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben McGuire has an excellent paper on the extensive ties between Egypt and Judea in Lehi&#8217;s day:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/LehiEgypt.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/LehiEgypt.pdf</a></p>
<p>My personal theory is that the plates were prepared in during the reign of Jehoiakim. He had been installed as a puppet leader by the Egyptians after they defeated Josiah. Diplomatic ties with Egypt would necessarily be closer then that before, or after.  It turns out that the Septuagint itself was commissioned by a later King of Egypt, Ptolomy II, for the Egyptian Royal Library.  I think it makes sense to see the plates as commissioned for the same purpose by an earlier Pharoh.  The contents of the plates, including prophecies of Jeremiah, argues for a late date.  Jermiah was not called until the 13th year of Josiah&#8217;s reign.  His earlier discourses strike me as critical of the Reformers, and unlikely to be taken seriously by Josiah&#8217;s people. And his most notable public sermon was his temple discourse given after Jehoiakim was installed, and Josiah&#8217;s reform in disarray.  And had they been done for Josiah, the Deuteronomist reforms would be more favorably viewed. Ben also sees evidence that the Book of Mormon consistently refers to a proto-Deuteronomy, rather than the current MT.  And his FAIR paper on the interesting disposition of allusion to the David and Goliath story points to other earlier sources than the MT.  Sorenson argues for a Northern tradition influence, an E source.  Noel Reynolds argues that the Book of Mormon presupposes a Genesis more like Moses and the MT.  Margaret Barker told Kevin Barney that the key to everything is what is missing from Genesis. Also, Nibley noted that the Book of Mormon shows much affinity with Egyptian names and situations.  (See &#8220;Something to Move Mountains&#8221; by Boyd Peterson in JBMS 6:2)  And so we get Egyptian language plates done at that time to enhance the Eguptian library, and to provide a resource for training diplomats. William Hamblin has shown that the oldest extant Biblical quotations are written on metal in Jerusalem 600 BCE, and the next oldest are in Egyptian.  It&#8217;s the right kind of thing to appear at that time and place.. Then, after the Egyptians were defeated by Nebudchadnezzar, with diplomatic ties severed, the plates waited in the Treasury for Nephi to come by with an alternate disposition.</p>
<p>There is a very good paper by William Eggington on how nicely Reformed Egyptian would function as a high language.  &#8220;Oral and Literate Cultures in the Book of Mormon.&#8221;  By using conceptual ideograms, the spoken language could change, while the written meanings remained relatively constant.</p>
<p>FWIW</p>
<p>Kevin Christensen<br />
Pittsburgh, PA</p>
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		<title>By: Roland</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/egyptian-brass-plates-and-a-naming-contest/#comment-260083</link>
		<dc:creator>Roland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:08:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4515#comment-260083</guid>
		<description>The Gold Plates of Mormon were also written in &quot;reformed Egyptian&quot; according to the JS History.  This is because writing Eyptian was significantly easier than writing in Hebrew.

However in those days you must have been the quite the scholar to have and understand and record the scriptures, since the Nephite prophets did not use their native Hebrew tongue but Egyptian instead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Gold Plates of Mormon were also written in &#8220;reformed Egyptian&#8221; according to the JS History.  This is because writing Eyptian was significantly easier than writing in Hebrew.</p>
<p>However in those days you must have been the quite the scholar to have and understand and record the scriptures, since the Nephite prophets did not use their native Hebrew tongue but Egyptian instead.</p>
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		<title>By: A. Nonny Mouse</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/04/egyptian-brass-plates-and-a-naming-contest/#comment-260076</link>
		<dc:creator>A. Nonny Mouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:18:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4515#comment-260076</guid>
		<description>The Mundane:
Occasional Scriptural Insights
&quot;And now for another installment in our series of Occasional Scriptural Insights.&quot; 

The slightly ridiculous:
Times &amp; Scriptures
Or:
Times &amp; Insights

The slightly maudlin:
Hidden Treasures
As in, &quot;And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures.&quot;
or
Scriptural Gems
(both of these with the byline &quot;Brought to you by Times &amp; Seasons&quot;)

The Nonny Spouse suggests:
Timely Insights

The Marvel-theme:
Reading the Scriptures with X-Ray Glasses  or just:
X-Ray Glasses
or
Scriptural X-Ray Glasses</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Mundane:<br />
Occasional Scriptural Insights<br />
&#8220;And now for another installment in our series of Occasional Scriptural Insights.&#8221; </p>
<p>The slightly ridiculous:<br />
Times &amp; Scriptures<br />
Or:<br />
Times &amp; Insights</p>
<p>The slightly maudlin:<br />
Hidden Treasures<br />
As in, &#8220;And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures.&#8221;<br />
or<br />
Scriptural Gems<br />
(both of these with the byline &#8220;Brought to you by Times &amp; Seasons&#8221;)</p>
<p>The Nonny Spouse suggests:<br />
Timely Insights</p>
<p>The Marvel-theme:<br />
Reading the Scriptures with X-Ray Glasses  or just:<br />
X-Ray Glasses<br />
or<br />
Scriptural X-Ray Glasses</p>
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