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	<title>Comments on: Mormon identity and culture</title>
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	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: jrl</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/mormon-identity-and-culture/#comment-256870</link>
		<dc:creator>jrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4466#comment-256870</guid>
		<description>On the topic of the changing meaning of &quot;pioneer,&quot; may I recommend the book Pioneers in Every Land?  It has the stories of pioneer church members from all over the world and fits nicely within our topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the topic of the changing meaning of &#8220;pioneer,&#8221; may I recommend the book Pioneers in Every Land?  It has the stories of pioneer church members from all over the world and fits nicely within our topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/mormon-identity-and-culture/#comment-256520</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 18:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4466#comment-256520</guid>
		<description>Wilfried, I&#039;d be interested in your thoughts about Pres. Ochtdorf&#039;s talk relative to this post and your overall work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wilfried, I&#8217;d be interested in your thoughts about Pres. Ochtdorf&#8217;s talk relative to this post and your overall work.</p>
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		<title>By: Wilfried</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/mormon-identity-and-culture/#comment-255828</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilfried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 00:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4466#comment-255828</guid>
		<description>Still on Pioneer Day and its relation to Mormon culture. Jan Shipps devoted &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.beliefnet.com/story/109/story_10985_1.html&quot;&gt;an article to it&lt;/a&gt;. Some excerpts:
&lt;em&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;Curiously, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not recognize Pioneer Day as a holy day. But July 24 is a state holiday in Utah. The result is a blending of the sacred and secular. 
(...)
In the mountain West, Pioneer Day long had the effect of sustaining an unofficial pattern of stratification within Mormon culture that placed the members of families who came to the region during the early decades of LDS settlement in the area above those who came later. This pattern is gradually being altered, and one reason may be that Pioneer Day is undergoing a transformation. 
(...)
A closer look at this celebration reveals a larger truth about the Latter-day Saints: nowadays all sorts of things are changing within Mormonism. The transformation of the idea of what it means to be a pioneer will surely help dissolve what amounted to a caste system within the Mormon community. But as the meaning of being a pioneer is being transformed rather than de-emphasized or discarded, Pioneer Day is likely to retain its significance as both a holy day and a holiday.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/em&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Still on Pioneer Day and its relation to Mormon culture. Jan Shipps devoted <a href="http://www.beliefnet.com/story/109/story_10985_1.html">an article to it</a>. Some excerpts:<br />
<em><br />
<blockquote>Curiously, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not recognize Pioneer Day as a holy day. But July 24 is a state holiday in Utah. The result is a blending of the sacred and secular.<br />
(&#8230;)<br />
In the mountain West, Pioneer Day long had the effect of sustaining an unofficial pattern of stratification within Mormon culture that placed the members of families who came to the region during the early decades of LDS settlement in the area above those who came later. This pattern is gradually being altered, and one reason may be that Pioneer Day is undergoing a transformation.<br />
(&#8230;)<br />
A closer look at this celebration reveals a larger truth about the Latter-day Saints: nowadays all sorts of things are changing within Mormonism. The transformation of the idea of what it means to be a pioneer will surely help dissolve what amounted to a caste system within the Mormon community. But as the meaning of being a pioneer is being transformed rather than de-emphasized or discarded, Pioneer Day is likely to retain its significance as both a holy day and a holiday.</p></blockquote>
<p></em></p>
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		<title>By: Wilfried</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/mormon-identity-and-culture/#comment-255795</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilfried</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 17:24:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4466#comment-255795</guid>
		<description>Well ... I find nothing to moderate in the latest comments ... Thanks, all!

Of course, special appreciation for the long intervention from Jonovitch (60).

I&#039;m not sure to what extent Pioneer Day is still celebrated or at least mentioned on July 24th in the church abroad. As I said in my post &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4396&quot;&gt;How American is the Church&lt;/a&gt;:


&lt;blockquote&gt;Mormon travel tourism to America, with a sense of pilgrimage, is expanding. By restoring historic places as tributes to its past and as locales for commemoration and inspiration, the Church itself is encouraging this tendency. It contributes to the formation and strengthening of a cultural identity in which members worldwide are invited to partake. In a press conference in conjunction with the Grand Encampment Celebration, Council Bluffs, Iowa, President Hinckley answered a question about the significance of historical places and events in the U.S. to e.g. members in the Philippines: 

&lt;em&gt;â€œI have just been among those people. They are proud of their church and they are proud of the roots of that church. They are proud of the foundation on which it is established. They want to know about it. They do come to know about it. They study about it, and it gives them the strength that comes of knowing that what they have has a tremendous background of courage and fortitude and sacrifice and faith. That to me is of tremendous significance to our people all across the world&lt;/em&gt;â€ (cited in Dew 1996:592).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

A problem might be that a celebration of something so specific as Pioneer Day may trigger opposite reactions among members abroad: some will view it as &quot;too American &amp; disconnected to their experience&quot;, others will enjoy the feeling of historical connection. But also: when members abroad publicly re-enact pioneers arriving in SLC, the media may publicize it as the way present-day Mormons still live -- somewhat like the Amish. Now that would be Identity...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well &#8230; I find nothing to moderate in the latest comments &#8230; Thanks, all!</p>
<p>Of course, special appreciation for the long intervention from Jonovitch (60).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure to what extent Pioneer Day is still celebrated or at least mentioned on July 24th in the church abroad. As I said in my post <a href="http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4396">How American is the Church</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Mormon travel tourism to America, with a sense of pilgrimage, is expanding. By restoring historic places as tributes to its past and as locales for commemoration and inspiration, the Church itself is encouraging this tendency. It contributes to the formation and strengthening of a cultural identity in which members worldwide are invited to partake. In a press conference in conjunction with the Grand Encampment Celebration, Council Bluffs, Iowa, President Hinckley answered a question about the significance of historical places and events in the U.S. to e.g. members in the Philippines: </p>
<p><em>â€œI have just been among those people. They are proud of their church and they are proud of the roots of that church. They are proud of the foundation on which it is established. They want to know about it. They do come to know about it. They study about it, and it gives them the strength that comes of knowing that what they have has a tremendous background of courage and fortitude and sacrifice and faith. That to me is of tremendous significance to our people all across the world</em>â€ (cited in Dew 1996:592).</p></blockquote>
<p>A problem might be that a celebration of something so specific as Pioneer Day may trigger opposite reactions among members abroad: some will view it as &#8220;too American &amp; disconnected to their experience&#8221;, others will enjoy the feeling of historical connection. But also: when members abroad publicly re-enact pioneers arriving in SLC, the media may publicize it as the way present-day Mormons still live &#8212; somewhat like the Amish. Now that would be Identity&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: KLC</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/mormon-identity-and-culture/#comment-255789</link>
		<dc:creator>KLC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 15:48:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4466#comment-255789</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t add anything to the topic but I would like to tell Wilfried how much I appreciate his style of moderating the comments.  You respond frequently and always find something to commend in the remarks, and that has created a conversation among friends.  Thanks for your efforts and your style.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t add anything to the topic but I would like to tell Wilfried how much I appreciate his style of moderating the comments.  You respond frequently and always find something to commend in the remarks, and that has created a conversation among friends.  Thanks for your efforts and your style.</p>
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		<title>By: jrl</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/mormon-identity-and-culture/#comment-255786</link>
		<dc:creator>jrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 15:24:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4466#comment-255786</guid>
		<description>Jon (#60): Amen, Brother Jon, Amen!  I love your analogies.  But about Pioneer Day - my understanding is that members around the world DO get into it, simply because it helps them feel connected somehow to the rest of the Church.  (Not that I ever celebrated it growing up in Arizona.  In fact, I was downright furious in the MTC when the mailroom closed for Pioneer Day - that&#039;s not real holiday!  I want my mail!)  In fact, that may be the kind of thing that a Mormon culture can (and should?) be based on - a celebration of a peculiar holiday that can have worldwide application because so many of our members are modern &quot;pioneers.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon (#60): Amen, Brother Jon, Amen!  I love your analogies.  But about Pioneer Day &#8211; my understanding is that members around the world DO get into it, simply because it helps them feel connected somehow to the rest of the Church.  (Not that I ever celebrated it growing up in Arizona.  In fact, I was downright furious in the MTC when the mailroom closed for Pioneer Day &#8211; that&#8217;s not real holiday!  I want my mail!)  In fact, that may be the kind of thing that a Mormon culture can (and should?) be based on &#8211; a celebration of a peculiar holiday that can have worldwide application because so many of our members are modern &#8220;pioneers.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: John Taber</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/mormon-identity-and-culture/#comment-255785</link>
		<dc:creator>John Taber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 14:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4466#comment-255785</guid>
		<description>&quot;uh, # 57, that WAS a jokeâ€¦ Just so you knowâ€¦&quot;

I still find it disconcerting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;uh, # 57, that WAS a jokeâ€¦ Just so you knowâ€¦&#8221;</p>
<p>I still find it disconcerting.</p>
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		<title>By: East Coast</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/mormon-identity-and-culture/#comment-255784</link>
		<dc:creator>East Coast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 14:03:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4466#comment-255784</guid>
		<description>&quot;Do I win a prize?&quot;

It would have to be a certificate that says, &quot;Das ist wunderbar senor&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Do I win a prize?&#8221;</p>
<p>It would have to be a certificate that says, &#8220;Das ist wunderbar senor&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonovitch</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/mormon-identity-and-culture/#comment-255766</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonovitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 05:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4466#comment-255766</guid>
		<description>Wow, it seems I reignited a slowly smoldering post.  

First off, Jonathan Green (55), I have seen the face of evil, and it is Schlagermusik.  LOL.  

jrl (56/59), I got the joke...at least I was really hoping it was a joke.  (phew!)

Back to more serious matters. Ardis is correct as usual -- I got a little ahead of myself again.  I have a bit of a thing for the Mormon Marketplace and the massive amounts of Stuff it produces.  I suppose my ire is better directed at those who willfully produce it rather than those who unwittingly buy it, thinking it will help their testimonies or make them more &quot;Mormon.&quot;  

Still, I think there&#039;s plenty of authentic Mormon culture that can be consumed without settling for the stuff that other people are selling.  I guess this goes back to the original question of &quot;what is Mormon culture?&quot;  If it is the pop music/art/books/games/EFY talks/Captain Moroni action figures, then I&#039;m not very Mormon.  But are these things really part of Mormon culture (i.e., the international/universal concept that we&#039;re grasping at here), or are they just part of the American West consumer culture?  (You know my answer.)  

Wilfried (58), you provided a great insight into your own search for Mormon identity as a young convert, and you&#039;re right: we (i.e., &quot;I&quot;) shouldn&#039;t rag on people who are grasping for identity, rather we should help them find it.  But once again, we end up asking what Mormon identity and culture is.  

My personal feeling is that authentic Mormon culture is found in the standard works (not historical-fiction novels), the principles of the gospel (not provincial interpretations), the official teachings of the Church (not popular folk doctrines), the temple-recommend questions, etc.  A bit hard to nail down, but I think that&#039;s the whole point.  Anyone can be a Mormon, because it&#039;s based on eternal principles and universal truths, and it&#039;s all free -- milk and honey without price.  You don&#039;t have to buy a thing to be a Mormon, or to even feel like a Mormon.  (You&#039;ll have a hard time finding Mormon Stuff around my house, other than a few carefully selected books and CDs -- most of which is Church Distribution loot anyway.)  Local traditions and pop-Mormon stuff might add some flavor, but you can&#039;t make a meal out of garnish and spices, and too much of it can ruin any dish.  

To expand on a different analogy from before, material possessions are simply the Mormon props.  But the passion, the humor, the sorrow, the ecstasy, the tension, the conflict, the resolution -- the script as wrought by the Great Playwright is what we truly identify with and what creates a lasting impression with the audience.  

When someone joins the Church, they join a worldwide/universal system of beliefs, not an Anglo/Western set of traditions.  (For example, I can&#039;t imagine our African/Mexican/Korean/German/Jewish ward celebrating Pioneer Day -- it&#039;s a local tradition that our cosmopolitan group doesn&#039;t relate to.)  

To use the food analogy one last time: all meals are basically the same (starch, veggies, meat) -- we use local spices and different kinds of starches, veggies, and meat to create variations, but it&#039;s still essentially the same food.  

Perhaps the better analogy is this: props and sets will vary with every adaptation (in every theater, with every actor), but the underlying script stays the same, and that&#039;s what people remember.  Regardless of where you and I saw The Play, we can both talk about it and relate to the same things because the script is the unchanging foundation.  It doesn&#039;t matter what the set looked like, or how large the theater is, or how many props were used, or how famous the actors were.  The script is the play, and everything else is details (or if done poorly, distractions).  

We all relate to the same Mormon script.  And it is that Mormon script that defines what a Mormon is.  As long as you act the part of a Mormon (i.e., if you follow the script), then you are a Mormon, regardless of props, set, or adaptation.  

Wilfried, I think this analogy might help solve your dilemma. (1) Mormon identity is defined by the script (perhaps the temple-recommend questions are the basic plotline and the official principles and Church teachings flesh out the narrative?).  If you follow the script, youâ€™re a Mormon, even if youâ€™re a really bad actor and sometimes forget the lines (thereâ€™s always someone offstage ready to help you remember).  Mormons simply act a certain way -- in fact, itâ€™s sometimes unmistakable, despite the lack of clear outward signs.  (2) The Playwright demands uniformity of storyline -- under the law youâ€™re not allowed to change the script without permission from the Author.  (3) Every director, actor, prop master, costumer, set designer, etc. is going to add something different to each production.  As long as local productions donâ€™t change the script, other adaptations are just fine.  

Do I win a prize?  (Front-row seats and a backstage pass?)

Jon

P.S. I spend time in the bloggernacle not to fill some craving, but because I liked to get smacked around by Ardis when I fly off the handle.  :)  Seriously, the discussions here are fantastic -- they have really helped me refine my viewpoints, opinions, arguments, and beliefs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, it seems I reignited a slowly smoldering post.  </p>
<p>First off, Jonathan Green (55), I have seen the face of evil, and it is Schlagermusik.  LOL.  </p>
<p>jrl (56/59), I got the joke&#8230;at least I was really hoping it was a joke.  (phew!)</p>
<p>Back to more serious matters. Ardis is correct as usual &#8212; I got a little ahead of myself again.  I have a bit of a thing for the Mormon Marketplace and the massive amounts of Stuff it produces.  I suppose my ire is better directed at those who willfully produce it rather than those who unwittingly buy it, thinking it will help their testimonies or make them more &#8220;Mormon.&#8221;  </p>
<p>Still, I think there&#8217;s plenty of authentic Mormon culture that can be consumed without settling for the stuff that other people are selling.  I guess this goes back to the original question of &#8220;what is Mormon culture?&#8221;  If it is the pop music/art/books/games/EFY talks/Captain Moroni action figures, then I&#8217;m not very Mormon.  But are these things really part of Mormon culture (i.e., the international/universal concept that we&#8217;re grasping at here), or are they just part of the American West consumer culture?  (You know my answer.)  </p>
<p>Wilfried (58), you provided a great insight into your own search for Mormon identity as a young convert, and you&#8217;re right: we (i.e., &#8220;I&#8221;) shouldn&#8217;t rag on people who are grasping for identity, rather we should help them find it.  But once again, we end up asking what Mormon identity and culture is.  </p>
<p>My personal feeling is that authentic Mormon culture is found in the standard works (not historical-fiction novels), the principles of the gospel (not provincial interpretations), the official teachings of the Church (not popular folk doctrines), the temple-recommend questions, etc.  A bit hard to nail down, but I think that&#8217;s the whole point.  Anyone can be a Mormon, because it&#8217;s based on eternal principles and universal truths, and it&#8217;s all free &#8212; milk and honey without price.  You don&#8217;t have to buy a thing to be a Mormon, or to even feel like a Mormon.  (You&#8217;ll have a hard time finding Mormon Stuff around my house, other than a few carefully selected books and CDs &#8212; most of which is Church Distribution loot anyway.)  Local traditions and pop-Mormon stuff might add some flavor, but you can&#8217;t make a meal out of garnish and spices, and too much of it can ruin any dish.  </p>
<p>To expand on a different analogy from before, material possessions are simply the Mormon props.  But the passion, the humor, the sorrow, the ecstasy, the tension, the conflict, the resolution &#8212; the script as wrought by the Great Playwright is what we truly identify with and what creates a lasting impression with the audience.  </p>
<p>When someone joins the Church, they join a worldwide/universal system of beliefs, not an Anglo/Western set of traditions.  (For example, I can&#8217;t imagine our African/Mexican/Korean/German/Jewish ward celebrating Pioneer Day &#8212; it&#8217;s a local tradition that our cosmopolitan group doesn&#8217;t relate to.)  </p>
<p>To use the food analogy one last time: all meals are basically the same (starch, veggies, meat) &#8212; we use local spices and different kinds of starches, veggies, and meat to create variations, but it&#8217;s still essentially the same food.  </p>
<p>Perhaps the better analogy is this: props and sets will vary with every adaptation (in every theater, with every actor), but the underlying script stays the same, and that&#8217;s what people remember.  Regardless of where you and I saw The Play, we can both talk about it and relate to the same things because the script is the unchanging foundation.  It doesn&#8217;t matter what the set looked like, or how large the theater is, or how many props were used, or how famous the actors were.  The script is the play, and everything else is details (or if done poorly, distractions).  </p>
<p>We all relate to the same Mormon script.  And it is that Mormon script that defines what a Mormon is.  As long as you act the part of a Mormon (i.e., if you follow the script), then you are a Mormon, regardless of props, set, or adaptation.  </p>
<p>Wilfried, I think this analogy might help solve your dilemma. (1) Mormon identity is defined by the script (perhaps the temple-recommend questions are the basic plotline and the official principles and Church teachings flesh out the narrative?).  If you follow the script, youâ€™re a Mormon, even if youâ€™re a really bad actor and sometimes forget the lines (thereâ€™s always someone offstage ready to help you remember).  Mormons simply act a certain way &#8212; in fact, itâ€™s sometimes unmistakable, despite the lack of clear outward signs.  (2) The Playwright demands uniformity of storyline &#8212; under the law youâ€™re not allowed to change the script without permission from the Author.  (3) Every director, actor, prop master, costumer, set designer, etc. is going to add something different to each production.  As long as local productions donâ€™t change the script, other adaptations are just fine.  </p>
<p>Do I win a prize?  (Front-row seats and a backstage pass?)</p>
<p>Jon</p>
<p>P.S. I spend time in the bloggernacle not to fill some craving, but because I liked to get smacked around by Ardis when I fly off the handle.  :)  Seriously, the discussions here are fantastic &#8212; they have really helped me refine my viewpoints, opinions, arguments, and beliefs.</p>
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		<title>By: jrl</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/mormon-identity-and-culture/#comment-255754</link>
		<dc:creator>jrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 01:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4466#comment-255754</guid>
		<description>uh, # 57, that WAS a joke... Just so you know...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>uh, # 57, that WAS a joke&#8230; Just so you know&#8230;</p>
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