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	<title>Comments on: Forging a Life</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/forging-a-life/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Randolph Finder</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/forging-a-life/#comment-253511</link>
		<dc:creator>Randolph Finder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:46:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4442#comment-253511</guid>
		<description>While the modern PEF might be more difficult, could we find someone who joined the the church in Europe just do use the Perpetual Emigration Fund to get the United States?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While the modern PEF might be more difficult, could we find someone who joined the the church in Europe just do use the Perpetual Emigration Fund to get the United States?</p>
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		<title>By: Jonovitch</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/forging-a-life/#comment-253494</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonovitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 06:08:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4442#comment-253494</guid>
		<description>Ardis, in the former East Germany, there were stories of spies in the wards there who would go to church, participate, and be active enough (play the part) to even get temple recommends for the then-new Freiberg Temple.  Some of the members say they new who these spies were, because after the Berlin Wall fell (&quot;nach der Wende&quot;) they just disappeared and never showed up again.  They were out of work, as it were.  

Now I don&#039;t know of any documentation to confirm these stories, but it&#039;s a matter of fact that the Church was very closely watched by the government, and I don&#039;t think anyone would put it past the communists in charge to go as far as placing authentic-looking spies in wards across the region, even to the point of &quot;infiltrating&quot; the temple.  While there was no direct financial reward for such spies for living their lives as supposed Mormons, other than appeasing the party and staying employed, a memoir of such a person&#039;s life as a pseudo-Mormon, East-German spy would be a fascinating read if you ask me.  

Maybe I should get started on mine...  ;)  

Jon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ardis, in the former East Germany, there were stories of spies in the wards there who would go to church, participate, and be active enough (play the part) to even get temple recommends for the then-new Freiberg Temple.  Some of the members say they new who these spies were, because after the Berlin Wall fell (&#8220;nach der Wende&#8221;) they just disappeared and never showed up again.  They were out of work, as it were.  </p>
<p>Now I don&#8217;t know of any documentation to confirm these stories, but it&#8217;s a matter of fact that the Church was very closely watched by the government, and I don&#8217;t think anyone would put it past the communists in charge to go as far as placing authentic-looking spies in wards across the region, even to the point of &#8220;infiltrating&#8221; the temple.  While there was no direct financial reward for such spies for living their lives as supposed Mormons, other than appeasing the party and staying employed, a memoir of such a person&#8217;s life as a pseudo-Mormon, East-German spy would be a fascinating read if you ask me.  </p>
<p>Maybe I should get started on mine&#8230;  ;)  </p>
<p>Jon</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis Parshall</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/forging-a-life/#comment-253009</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:47:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4442#comment-253009</guid>
		<description>Ray, without minimizing the seriousness of lying, I see Elder Dunn&#039;s embroideries as relatively minor details added to a generally true story:  he really was a Mormon, he really did serve in the military, he really was a ball player. Nothing about Misha&#039;s published life was true, but that wasn&#039;t discovered for years. She was convincing enough that despite some people&#039;s doubts, nobody was so thoroughly unconvinced that they went about seeking evidence for a very long time.  

And the fact that Misha was not Jewish is intriguing -- as you say, &quot;who wants to create a fake life to join a marginalized and persecuted â€œcultâ€? &quot;

If someone claimed to be a Mormon with marvelous mission experiences, for instance, or miraculous priesthood healings while stationed in Iraq or posted at some obscure international post without a Mormon presence, I wonder whether it would be possible to be so convincing that we would accept the story for any length of time.

I don&#039;t think it is possible. I wondered, though, whether any else was so diabolically clever that they had an idea of how it might be done.  That&#039;s all. Nothing more serious than that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray, without minimizing the seriousness of lying, I see Elder Dunn&#8217;s embroideries as relatively minor details added to a generally true story:  he really was a Mormon, he really did serve in the military, he really was a ball player. Nothing about Misha&#8217;s published life was true, but that wasn&#8217;t discovered for years. She was convincing enough that despite some people&#8217;s doubts, nobody was so thoroughly unconvinced that they went about seeking evidence for a very long time.  </p>
<p>And the fact that Misha was not Jewish is intriguing &#8212; as you say, &#8220;who wants to create a fake life to join a marginalized and persecuted â€œcultâ€? &#8221;</p>
<p>If someone claimed to be a Mormon with marvelous mission experiences, for instance, or miraculous priesthood healings while stationed in Iraq or posted at some obscure international post without a Mormon presence, I wonder whether it would be possible to be so convincing that we would accept the story for any length of time.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it is possible. I wondered, though, whether any else was so diabolically clever that they had an idea of how it might be done.  That&#8217;s all. Nothing more serious than that.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/forging-a-life/#comment-253008</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4442#comment-253008</guid>
		<description>Sorry for my density on this one, Ardis, but isn&#039;t &quot;fabricating details of an otherwise documentable life&quot; precisely what Misha Defonseca did?  Her lie was discovered precisely because she *had* a documented life.  Without that documentation, there would be only doubt.  Aren&#039;t you really talking about grandness of scale and extent of success more than nature of deception?  

I think there are openings in almost any group&#039;s history or world view for such an attempt.  I can&#039;t imagine someone wanting to do so within Mormonism in the 19th Century and early 20th Century - or even until very recently.  After all, who wants to create a fake life to join a marginalized and persecuted &quot;cult&quot;?  As to the possibility of it happening now . . . 

Given the past missionary practices in some countries that didn&#039;t exactly follow protocol, and the occurrence of natural disasters in third-world countries that literally wiped out entire villages, I could see someone claiming to have been baptized and &quot;lost&quot; - with no documentary proof.  As long as they could answer the baptismal interview questions intelligently and &quot;live a good Mormon life&quot;, it might be very difficult for the local membership to see any problem.  

The only motivation I can imagine for this, however, is financial.  This could be access to the church&#039;s assistance programs for members - now including the PEF, which might be a viable motivation in an area of abject poverty to fake membership and apply to serve as a missionary.  That would be even more understandable if the Church Missionary Fund paid for the mission.  However, an attempt like that would presuppose a level of understanding of the Church that is hard to imagine in an adolescent - someone young enough to serve a mission and receive assistance from the PEF.  It also assumes someone would fake a cover story when they simply could pretend to believe, be baptized and receive the same benefits.  

So . . . I just don&#039;t see it happening like Misha&#039;s example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for my density on this one, Ardis, but isn&#8217;t &#8220;fabricating details of an otherwise documentable life&#8221; precisely what Misha Defonseca did?  Her lie was discovered precisely because she *had* a documented life.  Without that documentation, there would be only doubt.  Aren&#8217;t you really talking about grandness of scale and extent of success more than nature of deception?  </p>
<p>I think there are openings in almost any group&#8217;s history or world view for such an attempt.  I can&#8217;t imagine someone wanting to do so within Mormonism in the 19th Century and early 20th Century &#8211; or even until very recently.  After all, who wants to create a fake life to join a marginalized and persecuted &#8220;cult&#8221;?  As to the possibility of it happening now . . . </p>
<p>Given the past missionary practices in some countries that didn&#8217;t exactly follow protocol, and the occurrence of natural disasters in third-world countries that literally wiped out entire villages, I could see someone claiming to have been baptized and &#8220;lost&#8221; &#8211; with no documentary proof.  As long as they could answer the baptismal interview questions intelligently and &#8220;live a good Mormon life&#8221;, it might be very difficult for the local membership to see any problem.  </p>
<p>The only motivation I can imagine for this, however, is financial.  This could be access to the church&#8217;s assistance programs for members &#8211; now including the PEF, which might be a viable motivation in an area of abject poverty to fake membership and apply to serve as a missionary.  That would be even more understandable if the Church Missionary Fund paid for the mission.  However, an attempt like that would presuppose a level of understanding of the Church that is hard to imagine in an adolescent &#8211; someone young enough to serve a mission and receive assistance from the PEF.  It also assumes someone would fake a cover story when they simply could pretend to believe, be baptized and receive the same benefits.  </p>
<p>So . . . I just don&#8217;t see it happening like Misha&#8217;s example.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark M</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/forging-a-life/#comment-253007</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:57:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4442#comment-253007</guid>
		<description>How about the Steed family, as in &quot;The Work and the Glory&quot;?  (just kidding)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about the Steed family, as in &#8220;The Work and the Glory&#8221;?  (just kidding)</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis Parshall</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/forging-a-life/#comment-253000</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:07:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4442#comment-253000</guid>
		<description>Exaggerating or even fabricating details of an otherwise documentable life aren&#039;t quite what I&#039;m looking for.

I suppose it was a dumb post, or at best unclear. I&#039;m fascinated that someone who was not a member of a particular group would/could fabricate an entire memoir, insinuating herself into the events of the group as if she were one of them, and do it so well that she could get away with it as long as Misha Defonseca did (although there were apparently people who challenged her story almost from the beginning; still, she fooled most of the people for a significant period of time).  

I&#039;m only musing about whether or how someone who was not a Mormon could recast his or her life so thoroughly as to appear to be one of us, at least for a while. Are there openings in our history or our world view for a stranger to do that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exaggerating or even fabricating details of an otherwise documentable life aren&#8217;t quite what I&#8217;m looking for.</p>
<p>I suppose it was a dumb post, or at best unclear. I&#8217;m fascinated that someone who was not a member of a particular group would/could fabricate an entire memoir, insinuating herself into the events of the group as if she were one of them, and do it so well that she could get away with it as long as Misha Defonseca did (although there were apparently people who challenged her story almost from the beginning; still, she fooled most of the people for a significant period of time).  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m only musing about whether or how someone who was not a Mormon could recast his or her life so thoroughly as to appear to be one of us, at least for a while. Are there openings in our history or our world view for a stranger to do that?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Hansen</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/forging-a-life/#comment-252998</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Hansen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4442#comment-252998</guid>
		<description>What about Paul H Dunn and his baseball/war stories?

MRKH</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about Paul H Dunn and his baseball/war stories?</p>
<p>MRKH</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/forging-a-life/#comment-252980</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 04:04:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4442#comment-252980</guid>
		<description>Ardis, the more I think about it, the more I think the welfare frauds just might be our equivalent.  They just are &quot;local&quot;, obscure examples rather than &quot;global&quot;, famous examples.  Perhaps that&#039;s instructive in its own right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ardis, the more I think about it, the more I think the welfare frauds just might be our equivalent.  They just are &#8220;local&#8221;, obscure examples rather than &#8220;global&#8221;, famous examples.  Perhaps that&#8217;s instructive in its own right.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis Parshall</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/forging-a-life/#comment-252978</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 03:56:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4442#comment-252978</guid>
		<description>These are all fun ideas for me to consider -- thanks. We note examples, or the possibilities of examples, of fraudulent documents, of members who are either insufficiently converted or deliberately fraudulent, Banner of Heaven (how could I not think of that?), and fraudulent or re-imagined former Mormon memoirs.

Our history may be too short, or we may be such inveterate record keepers, that I haven&#039;t been able to imagine a situation where a living person could palm off a Mormon memoir in the way Misha faked her Jewish life story -- there are positive church memberships, for instance, and returned missionaries very familiar with the time and place where any forgery could be set.

Still, if anyone does come up with an idea of where and when a faked Mormon memoir could possibly be set, in the way Misha&#039;s was set against the background of the Holocaust, I&#039;d love to hear of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These are all fun ideas for me to consider &#8212; thanks. We note examples, or the possibilities of examples, of fraudulent documents, of members who are either insufficiently converted or deliberately fraudulent, Banner of Heaven (how could I not think of that?), and fraudulent or re-imagined former Mormon memoirs.</p>
<p>Our history may be too short, or we may be such inveterate record keepers, that I haven&#8217;t been able to imagine a situation where a living person could palm off a Mormon memoir in the way Misha faked her Jewish life story &#8212; there are positive church memberships, for instance, and returned missionaries very familiar with the time and place where any forgery could be set.</p>
<p>Still, if anyone does come up with an idea of where and when a faked Mormon memoir could possibly be set, in the way Misha&#8217;s was set against the background of the Holocaust, I&#8217;d love to hear of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/03/forging-a-life/#comment-252970</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 03:37:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4442#comment-252970</guid>
		<description>19th Century anti-Mormon propaganda is full of unsympathetic claims (the woman who was held captive in the SLC temple and escaped by jumping out a window into the Great Salt Lake), but I can&#039;t think of a single sympathetic claim - unless you count serial welfare frauds who cycle from building to building trying to get assistance from bishops.  I know the stories they tell portray themselves as believers in need of sympathy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>19th Century anti-Mormon propaganda is full of unsympathetic claims (the woman who was held captive in the SLC temple and escaped by jumping out a window into the Great Salt Lake), but I can&#8217;t think of a single sympathetic claim &#8211; unless you count serial welfare frauds who cycle from building to building trying to get assistance from bishops.  I know the stories they tell portray themselves as believers in need of sympathy.</p>
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