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	<title>Comments on: The Childless Ones</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/the-childless-ones/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: East Coast</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/the-childless-ones/#comment-250004</link>
		<dc:creator>East Coast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 19:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4331#comment-250004</guid>
		<description>PS How did my [very long] comment get through!?! Thanks, Ardis. I just wanted to add that our son is doing fine, having had two major surgeries and will have at least one more surgery and various procedures if everything goes well. He is a very jolly little boy. The grief I have mentioned dealing with is the grief of having a child whose experience in life will be very different than a heart healthy child including a possible early death. It is a very intense thing and, as his mother, will probably last to some degree, for my entire life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS How did my [very long] comment get through!?! Thanks, Ardis. I just wanted to add that our son is doing fine, having had two major surgeries and will have at least one more surgery and various procedures if everything goes well. He is a very jolly little boy. The grief I have mentioned dealing with is the grief of having a child whose experience in life will be very different than a heart healthy child including a possible early death. It is a very intense thing and, as his mother, will probably last to some degree, for my entire life.</p>
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		<title>By: East Coast</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/the-childless-ones/#comment-250001</link>
		<dc:creator>East Coast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 19:11:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4331#comment-250001</guid>
		<description>I think that the original post is very beautiful and we would all do very well to go back and read it again.

Over the past year I have dealt with the process of grieving over a child. My child was born with a major heart defect that would have been almost immediately fatal without major surgeries. I would like to make a few statements based on my experience. In case you think I am deeply flawed and judgmental of others, through discussions with other parents in similar circumstances I have found that my experiences are very common.

First, when someone tried to help by offering doctrine, they may have thought they were giving comfort. I saw it as judgmental, inappropriate, and shallow. Please, just give a hug and say, &quot;I&#039;m sorry.&quot; This is what CraigH mentioned about the Savior. The Savior cried with Mary and Martha. If we want answers, we know where to get them. If we are at a stage to explore our questions, we will go to the scriptures, the temple, writings by the prophets, etc. This does not happen immediately and does not happen on someone else&#039;s timetable. Sometimes healing from grief never happens in this life. Don&#039;t try and force healing from grief. Don&#039;t tell us how to feel.

Second, before my son was born, someone reassured me that he could be healed. We had a number of deeply personal, private experiences through which we knew my son&#039;s condition would not be taken away. We know that the gospel holds the miracle of healing from death and disability, but please don&#039;t offer it as a platitude.

Third, I&#039;m still puzzling over family members who never asked about our situation. However, also in regards to Bookslinger&#039;s comments in this thread, I have learned that the inability of some people to show compassion does not mean they do not feel compassion or are bad or evil. It simply means that they do not know how to show compassion or do not know appropriate ways to express themselves. (I have to keep reminding myself of that.)

Fourth, if you don&#039;t know whether someone is willing to talk about their situation or would like help, ask them. Perhaps you can say, &quot;Would you like to talk about what it means for you to be childless/single/the parent of a disabled child?&quot; They will either say yes or no. Don&#039;t take it personally either way. I did appreciate the networking that put us in touch with other heart families.

Fifth, do not assume that because you know something of someone&#039;s situation that you know all of their situation or that you understand how someone in a similar situation is doing. If people are willing to share and you are willing to listen, that is great. It still does not give you the right to make judgments.

Thank you to Ardis for posting the original essay. It offers mercy without the judgment that is so often present in these discussions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that the original post is very beautiful and we would all do very well to go back and read it again.</p>
<p>Over the past year I have dealt with the process of grieving over a child. My child was born with a major heart defect that would have been almost immediately fatal without major surgeries. I would like to make a few statements based on my experience. In case you think I am deeply flawed and judgmental of others, through discussions with other parents in similar circumstances I have found that my experiences are very common.</p>
<p>First, when someone tried to help by offering doctrine, they may have thought they were giving comfort. I saw it as judgmental, inappropriate, and shallow. Please, just give a hug and say, &#8220;I&#8217;m sorry.&#8221; This is what CraigH mentioned about the Savior. The Savior cried with Mary and Martha. If we want answers, we know where to get them. If we are at a stage to explore our questions, we will go to the scriptures, the temple, writings by the prophets, etc. This does not happen immediately and does not happen on someone else&#8217;s timetable. Sometimes healing from grief never happens in this life. Don&#8217;t try and force healing from grief. Don&#8217;t tell us how to feel.</p>
<p>Second, before my son was born, someone reassured me that he could be healed. We had a number of deeply personal, private experiences through which we knew my son&#8217;s condition would not be taken away. We know that the gospel holds the miracle of healing from death and disability, but please don&#8217;t offer it as a platitude.</p>
<p>Third, I&#8217;m still puzzling over family members who never asked about our situation. However, also in regards to Bookslinger&#8217;s comments in this thread, I have learned that the inability of some people to show compassion does not mean they do not feel compassion or are bad or evil. It simply means that they do not know how to show compassion or do not know appropriate ways to express themselves. (I have to keep reminding myself of that.)</p>
<p>Fourth, if you don&#8217;t know whether someone is willing to talk about their situation or would like help, ask them. Perhaps you can say, &#8220;Would you like to talk about what it means for you to be childless/single/the parent of a disabled child?&#8221; They will either say yes or no. Don&#8217;t take it personally either way. I did appreciate the networking that put us in touch with other heart families.</p>
<p>Fifth, do not assume that because you know something of someone&#8217;s situation that you know all of their situation or that you understand how someone in a similar situation is doing. If people are willing to share and you are willing to listen, that is great. It still does not give you the right to make judgments.</p>
<p>Thank you to Ardis for posting the original essay. It offers mercy without the judgment that is so often present in these discussions.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark M</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/the-childless-ones/#comment-249997</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:56:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4331#comment-249997</guid>
		<description>Bookslinger, I commend you for your continued hope and faith for a future marriage. I myself was single until age 40, even though I came from a loving family and wanted a family of my own. Marriage can indeed be very sweet, even when begun later in life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bookslinger, I commend you for your continued hope and faith for a future marriage. I myself was single until age 40, even though I came from a loving family and wanted a family of my own. Marriage can indeed be very sweet, even when begun later in life.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis Parshall</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/the-childless-ones/#comment-249989</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4331#comment-249989</guid>
		<description>Thanks, all, for taking part. I&#039;m closing comments now  -- but if any latecomer has a directly relevant comment to add, please feel free to email it to me (aeparshall *at* aol *dot* com).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, all, for taking part. I&#8217;m closing comments now  &#8212; but if any latecomer has a directly relevant comment to add, please feel free to email it to me (aeparshall *at* aol *dot* com).</p>
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		<title>By: CraigH</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/the-childless-ones/#comment-249986</link>
		<dc:creator>CraigH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:29:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4331#comment-249986</guid>
		<description>Actually that proverb is exactly what I had in mind as schadenfreude. It suggests to me that somehow we can&#039;t exercise compassion and imagination until we find someone worse off, at which point we then feel a little better, perhaps even a little superior. That seems to me egotistical. I accept that it may speak to you and others differently, but that&#039;s what it says to me. What seems to me most unusual about Christ, and most worthy of imitation, was 1) an imagination which allowed him to understand how others feel without having experienced it himself, and 2) equating himself with the sufferer, rather than thinking himself &quot;more fortunate&quot; or superior. I guess what I&#039;m saying is that when people suffer we take it seriously and try to put ourselves in their shoes, rather than suggest they snap out of it. I think compassion is what helps us all to get out of our bad things, to know that someone else cares on your level. And I think compassion flows when we realize how badly we&#039;re all in need of it, thus we give it.
&quot;Looking forward with an eye of faith&quot; and &quot;Pondering eternity&quot; don&#039;t prove to me that we know much about the eternities, or dissuade me from thinking that we ought to focus on lifting others and ourselves here and now. Many bold statements about the next life still seem to rooted in speculation; prophets speculate and offer opinions too. My point was that we can offer something more immediate, in the form of compassion, and the state of the eternities will work itself out on its own, I have little doubt. When Jesus wept over Lazarus, and brought him back to life, he didn&#039;t rely on comforting Mary and Martha or himself with platitudes about the eternities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually that proverb is exactly what I had in mind as schadenfreude. It suggests to me that somehow we can&#8217;t exercise compassion and imagination until we find someone worse off, at which point we then feel a little better, perhaps even a little superior. That seems to me egotistical. I accept that it may speak to you and others differently, but that&#8217;s what it says to me. What seems to me most unusual about Christ, and most worthy of imitation, was 1) an imagination which allowed him to understand how others feel without having experienced it himself, and 2) equating himself with the sufferer, rather than thinking himself &#8220;more fortunate&#8221; or superior. I guess what I&#8217;m saying is that when people suffer we take it seriously and try to put ourselves in their shoes, rather than suggest they snap out of it. I think compassion is what helps us all to get out of our bad things, to know that someone else cares on your level. And I think compassion flows when we realize how badly we&#8217;re all in need of it, thus we give it.<br />
&#8220;Looking forward with an eye of faith&#8221; and &#8220;Pondering eternity&#8221; don&#8217;t prove to me that we know much about the eternities, or dissuade me from thinking that we ought to focus on lifting others and ourselves here and now. Many bold statements about the next life still seem to rooted in speculation; prophets speculate and offer opinions too. My point was that we can offer something more immediate, in the form of compassion, and the state of the eternities will work itself out on its own, I have little doubt. When Jesus wept over Lazarus, and brought him back to life, he didn&#8217;t rely on comforting Mary and Martha or himself with platitudes about the eternities.</p>
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		<title>By: Bookslinger</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/the-childless-ones/#comment-249981</link>
		<dc:creator>Bookslinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:53:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4331#comment-249981</guid>
		<description>CraigH, I don&#039;t think schadenfreude is expressed in the proverb: &quot;I cried because I had no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet&quot;.   Am I wrong or insenstive to say to a crying shoe-less man &quot;Look over there at the man with no feet&quot; ?  (Ok, I admit, it would be even better to help the shoe-less man obtain a pair of shoes.)  I know more than one person who has volunteered at neo-natal intensive care units in order to &quot;feel better&quot;, and I don&#039;t believe schadenfreude has anything to do with it.

I know a couple who&#039;s adult daughter died in childbirth.  As part of their healing process, they have been foster parents to a string of special-needs and handicapped babies.  I think turning to those who are worse off, out of compassion, whether it be in actual service, or whether it be turning just your heart to them in preparation for something more concrete later, can of itself be part of a healing or restoration process.

As to your rejoinders of &quot;speculative&quot;, I think I&#039;ve based my comments on scripture and upon words of modern prophets.  They&#039;ve been pretty clear about the likely destiny of those who live and die without any gospel law or gospel light at all, especially those who die before the age of accountability. For the rest of us, there are few hard-and-fast guarantees in the Gospel. The many promises are there, for sure, but do we really know in this life if/when we _attain_ the promise?  Faith, by definition, is mostly speculative, based on Scriptural and scriptural words that we hope to apply to our individual situations.  Only those who&#039;ve had their calling and election made sure have any guarantee that they&#039;ve actually _attained_ a promise, (and even then, only after quite a lot of exercising faith).  For the rest of us, it&#039;s pretty much faith, and _conditional_ promises.

So you&#039;re right in that whether or not we will actually attain the Celestial Kingdom, or whatever degree therein, is speculation.  However, the scriptures are replete with admonitions to &quot;look forward with an eye of faith&quot; and to _hope_, and &quot;ponder the solemnities of eternity.&quot;

There is a time to mourn, and a time to mourn with those who mourn.  And there is a time to realize that sometimes the Giver chooses not to give, and doesn&#039;t immediately tell us why.  And sometimes the Giver decides to take away.    Personally, I believe the Giver is also the great &quot;Evener-Upper&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CraigH, I don&#8217;t think schadenfreude is expressed in the proverb: &#8220;I cried because I had no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet&#8221;.   Am I wrong or insenstive to say to a crying shoe-less man &#8220;Look over there at the man with no feet&#8221; ?  (Ok, I admit, it would be even better to help the shoe-less man obtain a pair of shoes.)  I know more than one person who has volunteered at neo-natal intensive care units in order to &#8220;feel better&#8221;, and I don&#8217;t believe schadenfreude has anything to do with it.</p>
<p>I know a couple who&#8217;s adult daughter died in childbirth.  As part of their healing process, they have been foster parents to a string of special-needs and handicapped babies.  I think turning to those who are worse off, out of compassion, whether it be in actual service, or whether it be turning just your heart to them in preparation for something more concrete later, can of itself be part of a healing or restoration process.</p>
<p>As to your rejoinders of &#8220;speculative&#8221;, I think I&#8217;ve based my comments on scripture and upon words of modern prophets.  They&#8217;ve been pretty clear about the likely destiny of those who live and die without any gospel law or gospel light at all, especially those who die before the age of accountability. For the rest of us, there are few hard-and-fast guarantees in the Gospel. The many promises are there, for sure, but do we really know in this life if/when we _attain_ the promise?  Faith, by definition, is mostly speculative, based on Scriptural and scriptural words that we hope to apply to our individual situations.  Only those who&#8217;ve had their calling and election made sure have any guarantee that they&#8217;ve actually _attained_ a promise, (and even then, only after quite a lot of exercising faith).  For the rest of us, it&#8217;s pretty much faith, and _conditional_ promises.</p>
<p>So you&#8217;re right in that whether or not we will actually attain the Celestial Kingdom, or whatever degree therein, is speculation.  However, the scriptures are replete with admonitions to &#8220;look forward with an eye of faith&#8221; and to _hope_, and &#8220;ponder the solemnities of eternity.&#8221;</p>
<p>There is a time to mourn, and a time to mourn with those who mourn.  And there is a time to realize that sometimes the Giver chooses not to give, and doesn&#8217;t immediately tell us why.  And sometimes the Giver decides to take away.    Personally, I believe the Giver is also the great &#8220;Evener-Upper&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: CS Eric</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/the-childless-ones/#comment-249973</link>
		<dc:creator>CS Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:16:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4331#comment-249973</guid>
		<description>Thanks, CraigH.  I couldn&#039;t have said it better.  

This thread has surprised me.  I have admired Bookslinger for quite a while, with his zeal to spread the Book of Mormon.  It is a shame that such missionary zeal is not accompanied by compassion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, CraigH.  I couldn&#8217;t have said it better.  </p>
<p>This thread has surprised me.  I have admired Bookslinger for quite a while, with his zeal to spread the Book of Mormon.  It is a shame that such missionary zeal is not accompanied by compassion.</p>
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		<title>By: CraigH</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/the-childless-ones/#comment-249964</link>
		<dc:creator>CraigH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:44:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4331#comment-249964</guid>
		<description>Forgive me if it&#039;s CS Eric&#039;s place alone to respond to post 68, or if I misunderstand what post 68 was trying to do, because I&#039;m sure it was meant with good intention. But none of the reasons there would make me feel much better. 1. Looking for others in a worse situation to make yourself feel better strikes me as schadenfreude, and therefore selfish. 2. The best example of all, yet I&#039;m not sure how it relates to this specific issue. 3. is speculation, and works against finding joy in this life, a legitimate goal of the gospel. 4. How do you measure what&#039;s the &quot;greatest country on earth?&quot; It&#039;s highly subjective, alas; moreover, there&#039;s no way to prove this is the most prosperous time in earth&#039;s history, I rather doubt it; perhaps the time of the greatest gap between haves and have-nots in earth&#039;s history, that I can buy. But most of all, this discounts the real pain someone might feel, as it trivializes it. 5. Quite speculative, as is much of what we &quot;know&quot; about the next life. 6. Speculative. 7. Again denying that someone&#039;s pain is real, and giving them the chance to work through it as they see fit. 8. Highly speculative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Forgive me if it&#8217;s CS Eric&#8217;s place alone to respond to post 68, or if I misunderstand what post 68 was trying to do, because I&#8217;m sure it was meant with good intention. But none of the reasons there would make me feel much better. 1. Looking for others in a worse situation to make yourself feel better strikes me as schadenfreude, and therefore selfish. 2. The best example of all, yet I&#8217;m not sure how it relates to this specific issue. 3. is speculation, and works against finding joy in this life, a legitimate goal of the gospel. 4. How do you measure what&#8217;s the &#8220;greatest country on earth?&#8221; It&#8217;s highly subjective, alas; moreover, there&#8217;s no way to prove this is the most prosperous time in earth&#8217;s history, I rather doubt it; perhaps the time of the greatest gap between haves and have-nots in earth&#8217;s history, that I can buy. But most of all, this discounts the real pain someone might feel, as it trivializes it. 5. Quite speculative, as is much of what we &#8220;know&#8221; about the next life. 6. Speculative. 7. Again denying that someone&#8217;s pain is real, and giving them the chance to work through it as they see fit. 8. Highly speculative.</p>
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		<title>By: Bookslinger</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/the-childless-ones/#comment-249922</link>
		<dc:creator>Bookslinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:21:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4331#comment-249922</guid>
		<description>CS, I know the story. I didn&#039;t mean it was a 100% parallel or analogy, but having Ishmael through Hagar was a form of adoption/substitution/surrogacy.

I was bemoaning an injured foot one day until I went to chuch and saw a man on a three-wheeled mobility vehicle, and he had no feet.

Being Jewish on my father&#039;s side, I sometimes think of the Holocaust, and all the innocent lives cut short, many not having the opportunity to grow up, or marry or have kids.

One of the great messages of the scriptures and all the prophets, at least since Joseph Smith is how tragedies in this life don&#039;t deprive us of blessings post-resurrection. God is the great &quot;Evener-upper&quot;.

You&#039;re married, you know the gospel, you try to live the gospel, you&#039;ve tried to have kids. You live in the greatest country on earth, in the most prosperous time in earth&#039;s history.  Count your blessings.

If God can grant spouses and children to the zillions of people who since the beginning of the earth died as infants so that they can be exalted in the highest degree in the Celestial kingdom, I don&#039;t think you and your wife will be denied any blessings either.  

According to a post by Kaimi somewhere, most of the exalted ones in the CK will likely be people who died in childhood.  (And if you run the numbers, and look at the scriptural promises, it sounds right to me.)

The fact that you grew to adulthood, know the gospel, embrace the gospel, and found a spouse, all in mortality, means that you have achieved more in this life than most of the people whom you will share the CK with.

So you don&#039;t have any natural kids in this life, and may not be able to adopt any.  That will put you in the majority  when you&#039;re in the highest degree in the CK.  Your minority status in Happy Valley (or wherever your ward is) is temporary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CS, I know the story. I didn&#8217;t mean it was a 100% parallel or analogy, but having Ishmael through Hagar was a form of adoption/substitution/surrogacy.</p>
<p>I was bemoaning an injured foot one day until I went to chuch and saw a man on a three-wheeled mobility vehicle, and he had no feet.</p>
<p>Being Jewish on my father&#8217;s side, I sometimes think of the Holocaust, and all the innocent lives cut short, many not having the opportunity to grow up, or marry or have kids.</p>
<p>One of the great messages of the scriptures and all the prophets, at least since Joseph Smith is how tragedies in this life don&#8217;t deprive us of blessings post-resurrection. God is the great &#8220;Evener-upper&#8221;.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re married, you know the gospel, you try to live the gospel, you&#8217;ve tried to have kids. You live in the greatest country on earth, in the most prosperous time in earth&#8217;s history.  Count your blessings.</p>
<p>If God can grant spouses and children to the zillions of people who since the beginning of the earth died as infants so that they can be exalted in the highest degree in the Celestial kingdom, I don&#8217;t think you and your wife will be denied any blessings either.  </p>
<p>According to a post by Kaimi somewhere, most of the exalted ones in the CK will likely be people who died in childhood.  (And if you run the numbers, and look at the scriptural promises, it sounds right to me.)</p>
<p>The fact that you grew to adulthood, know the gospel, embrace the gospel, and found a spouse, all in mortality, means that you have achieved more in this life than most of the people whom you will share the CK with.</p>
<p>So you don&#8217;t have any natural kids in this life, and may not be able to adopt any.  That will put you in the majority  when you&#8217;re in the highest degree in the CK.  Your minority status in Happy Valley (or wherever your ward is) is temporary.</p>
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		<title>By: CS Eric</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/the-childless-ones/#comment-249911</link>
		<dc:creator>CS Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:41:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4331#comment-249911</guid>
		<description>Bookslinger (#66),

Abraham didn&#039;t adopt Ishmael, Abraham was Ishmael&#039;s father.  Ishmael was every bit as much Abraham&#039;s son as was Isaac. The only reason Isaac inherited and Ishmael did not was that Isaac was the son of the first wife, Ishmael the son of the second.  If your solution for a man who can&#039;t conceive with his current wife is to follow Abraham&#039;s example, you are recommending either polygamy, divorce, or an extra-marital child.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bookslinger (#66),</p>
<p>Abraham didn&#8217;t adopt Ishmael, Abraham was Ishmael&#8217;s father.  Ishmael was every bit as much Abraham&#8217;s son as was Isaac. The only reason Isaac inherited and Ishmael did not was that Isaac was the son of the first wife, Ishmael the son of the second.  If your solution for a man who can&#8217;t conceive with his current wife is to follow Abraham&#8217;s example, you are recommending either polygamy, divorce, or an extra-marital child.</p>
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