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	<title>Comments on: States of Grace review (spoilers).</title>
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	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/states-of-grace-spoilers/#comment-251623</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 11:45:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4412#comment-251623</guid>
		<description>Jon, I really like that scene you paint.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon, I really like that scene you paint.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonovitch</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/states-of-grace-spoilers/#comment-251618</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonovitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 08:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4412#comment-251618</guid>
		<description>Adam, that was a very good analysis of the movie.  I&#039;ve been meaning to see it for some time, and when I saw your &quot;spoilers!&quot; warning I broke down and rented it from the local Hollywood.  

The ending moved me to (almost) tears tonight, and any movie that can accomplish that (it&#039;s a short list) is worth watching in my opinion.  I thought the symbolic grace that passed to each of the characters lives in front of the nativity was beautiful.  That said, it made me very uncomfortable to see Holly squishing up close to Elder Ferrell (doesn&#039;t he remind anyone else of Will Ferrell?) and nestling her head on his shoulder and to not have the mission president or his mom (hello?!) intervene.  (I swear it looked like they were already officially boyfriend/girlfriend.  &quot;Call me, mkay?&quot;  Gag.)  I think even &quot;untrained&quot; non-Mormon viewers would feel uncomfortable with the inconsistency.  

Here&#039;s my final scene:  The mission president and other Elders are waiting by the van.  As Elder Ferrell and his mom come down the apartment steps and out the door, they hear the music from the nativity and gravitate naturally to take a look.  (And remove the &quot;Lutheran&quot; sign -- I felt like that was going out of the way to prove some unnecessary ecumenical point.  &quot;Do Lutherans know more about grace than Mormons?&quot;  It was distracting to me.)  The others by the van notice this and naturally wander over, too, to see what they see.  (Having everyone meet at the van, and then only Elder Ferrell walking over, and then Holly, and then everyone else, it was WAY too forced.)  

The main characters pass the baby from one person to the next (keeping the powerful symbol of God&#039;s grace touching their lives) -- Holly is still watching from her balcony in tears.  After they&#039;ve all held the baby, the mission president taps the elders on their shoulder to signal &quot;it&#039;s time to go&quot; and they slowly break off, but Elder Ferrell hangs on to the baby a bit longer, now weeping and kneeling down.  Seeing this, Holly then rushes downstairs and as she arrives and kneels next to him. He hands the baby off to her, looks sorrowfully one last time at her, and then escorts his mom back to the van.  Holly lays the baby back in the manger, slowly takes a few steps toward the van as it drives off, tugs at the cross around her neck, and walks back up to her apartment as we fade to black.  

You still get everyone in the last scene, you still have the final interaction between Elder Ferrell and Holly (but it&#039;s more believable and more faithful to the reality of what happened and to those gosh-darn rules), and you still have the symbol of the grace of God working in everyone&#039;s lives.  

Adam, just get me a Handycam, a Mac, and Final Cut Pro, and I&#039;ll shoot the whole thing for you!  :)

Jon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam, that was a very good analysis of the movie.  I&#8217;ve been meaning to see it for some time, and when I saw your &#8220;spoilers!&#8221; warning I broke down and rented it from the local Hollywood.  </p>
<p>The ending moved me to (almost) tears tonight, and any movie that can accomplish that (it&#8217;s a short list) is worth watching in my opinion.  I thought the symbolic grace that passed to each of the characters lives in front of the nativity was beautiful.  That said, it made me very uncomfortable to see Holly squishing up close to Elder Ferrell (doesn&#8217;t he remind anyone else of Will Ferrell?) and nestling her head on his shoulder and to not have the mission president or his mom (hello?!) intervene.  (I swear it looked like they were already officially boyfriend/girlfriend.  &#8220;Call me, mkay?&#8221;  Gag.)  I think even &#8220;untrained&#8221; non-Mormon viewers would feel uncomfortable with the inconsistency.  </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s my final scene:  The mission president and other Elders are waiting by the van.  As Elder Ferrell and his mom come down the apartment steps and out the door, they hear the music from the nativity and gravitate naturally to take a look.  (And remove the &#8220;Lutheran&#8221; sign &#8212; I felt like that was going out of the way to prove some unnecessary ecumenical point.  &#8220;Do Lutherans know more about grace than Mormons?&#8221;  It was distracting to me.)  The others by the van notice this and naturally wander over, too, to see what they see.  (Having everyone meet at the van, and then only Elder Ferrell walking over, and then Holly, and then everyone else, it was WAY too forced.)  </p>
<p>The main characters pass the baby from one person to the next (keeping the powerful symbol of God&#8217;s grace touching their lives) &#8212; Holly is still watching from her balcony in tears.  After they&#8217;ve all held the baby, the mission president taps the elders on their shoulder to signal &#8220;it&#8217;s time to go&#8221; and they slowly break off, but Elder Ferrell hangs on to the baby a bit longer, now weeping and kneeling down.  Seeing this, Holly then rushes downstairs and as she arrives and kneels next to him. He hands the baby off to her, looks sorrowfully one last time at her, and then escorts his mom back to the van.  Holly lays the baby back in the manger, slowly takes a few steps toward the van as it drives off, tugs at the cross around her neck, and walks back up to her apartment as we fade to black.  </p>
<p>You still get everyone in the last scene, you still have the final interaction between Elder Ferrell and Holly (but it&#8217;s more believable and more faithful to the reality of what happened and to those gosh-darn rules), and you still have the symbol of the grace of God working in everyone&#8217;s lives.  </p>
<p>Adam, just get me a Handycam, a Mac, and Final Cut Pro, and I&#8217;ll shoot the whole thing for you!  :)</p>
<p>Jon</p>
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		<title>By: Snow White</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/states-of-grace-spoilers/#comment-251573</link>
		<dc:creator>Snow White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 20:46:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4412#comment-251573</guid>
		<description>I would think if Farell was upset about something else, that he would have been quick to point out that he wasn&#039;t involved in any fornication with her, at least so she wouldn&#039;t have been treated like scum by all the mishy people when they obviously assumed it happened. I can&#039;t think of any purpose relevant to the film where such a subterfuge perpetrated on the audience would be valuable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would think if Farell was upset about something else, that he would have been quick to point out that he wasn&#8217;t involved in any fornication with her, at least so she wouldn&#8217;t have been treated like scum by all the mishy people when they obviously assumed it happened. I can&#8217;t think of any purpose relevant to the film where such a subterfuge perpetrated on the audience would be valuable.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/states-of-grace-spoilers/#comment-251533</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4412#comment-251533</guid>
		<description>I guess I don&#039;t see any deliberate unwillingness or real evasiveness.  What happened is pretty clear in broad outlines, imho.  I suppose we&#039;ll have to disagree about that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I don&#8217;t see any deliberate unwillingness or real evasiveness.  What happened is pretty clear in broad outlines, imho.  I suppose we&#8217;ll have to disagree about that.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Kramer</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/states-of-grace-spoilers/#comment-251531</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Kramer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 16:00:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4412#comment-251531</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not endorsing what I see to be Dutcher&#039;s view of Atonement and Grace.  I&#039;m just not convinced that there wasn&#039;t something more at work in terms of how he says what he&#039;s trying to say -- his deliberate unwillingness to make clear what happened -- than wanting to avoid traumatizing the delicacy of the audience&#039;s moral and aesthetic sensibilities.  He forces the audience to make assumptions and those assumptions are likely to be rooted in our rush to judgment based upon Holly&#039;s past and the ingrainedness of MTC phariseeism.  Like you, I disagree with Matt that Dutcher is attempting to vindicate such attitudes -- the tremendous good that comes from some rule-breaking militates against such a view; we just disagree about what lies behind the narrative evasiveness re: what happened in Holly&#039;s apartment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not endorsing what I see to be Dutcher&#8217;s view of Atonement and Grace.  I&#8217;m just not convinced that there wasn&#8217;t something more at work in terms of how he says what he&#8217;s trying to say &#8212; his deliberate unwillingness to make clear what happened &#8212; than wanting to avoid traumatizing the delicacy of the audience&#8217;s moral and aesthetic sensibilities.  He forces the audience to make assumptions and those assumptions are likely to be rooted in our rush to judgment based upon Holly&#8217;s past and the ingrainedness of MTC phariseeism.  Like you, I disagree with Matt that Dutcher is attempting to vindicate such attitudes &#8212; the tremendous good that comes from some rule-breaking militates against such a view; we just disagree about what lies behind the narrative evasiveness re: what happened in Holly&#8217;s apartment.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/states-of-grace-spoilers/#comment-251530</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4412#comment-251530</guid>
		<description>He does practically spoon feeds fornication to the audience which undercuts the rest of your point, in my opinion.  Anyway, I have no idea why being particular about sin would be an obstacle to the Atonement.  The more sin is an abstract category instead of a visceral wrong done at this place and this hour, the less visceral and meaningful the atonement is.

It isn&#039;t a question of playing some post-modern trick on the audience.  Dutcher has his faults but he&#039;s not that bad--if his message were that we assume sin where it isn&#039;t, we&#039;d see it somewhere in the movie, it would be confirmed somewhere at the end, and the film wouldn&#039;t be titled States of Grace.  I think the real reasons why we aren&#039;t sledgehammered with the fornication are delicacy for the audience&#039;s sensibility, the difficulty of making the mutual seduction plausible if shown on-screen, and the fact that making the sin more real to the audience exposes how absurd the ending is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He does practically spoon feeds fornication to the audience which undercuts the rest of your point, in my opinion.  Anyway, I have no idea why being particular about sin would be an obstacle to the Atonement.  The more sin is an abstract category instead of a visceral wrong done at this place and this hour, the less visceral and meaningful the atonement is.</p>
<p>It isn&#8217;t a question of playing some post-modern trick on the audience.  Dutcher has his faults but he&#8217;s not that bad&#8211;if his message were that we assume sin where it isn&#8217;t, we&#8217;d see it somewhere in the movie, it would be confirmed somewhere at the end, and the film wouldn&#8217;t be titled States of Grace.  I think the real reasons why we aren&#8217;t sledgehammered with the fornication are delicacy for the audience&#8217;s sensibility, the difficulty of making the mutual seduction plausible if shown on-screen, and the fact that making the sin more real to the audience exposes how absurd the ending is.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Kramer</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/states-of-grace-spoilers/#comment-251529</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Kramer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:44:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4412#comment-251529</guid>
		<description>I worded it poorly.  Obviously the narrative points in a certain direction -- as he practically spoon feeds fornication to an expecting audience.  But he&#039;s also deliberately evasive.  My reading of what Dutcher tried to do does not brush off sin as irrelevant, but shifts the focus away from identifying and labeling the precise nature, details, and extent of the sinful act to the real power available in Christ for overcoming its effects, whatever they are.  Dutcher had way too many opportunities to confirm sexual transgression for his unwillingness to do so not to mean something.  Matt sees Dutcher vindicating pharisaic CES-types, where I suspect that he was relying upon the presumptuous, rush-to-judgment paradigm they embody and the audience&#039;s awareness of Holly&#039;s past sins to make a statement about how our obsession with diagnosing the clinical details of sinful acts is an obstacle to Atonement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I worded it poorly.  Obviously the narrative points in a certain direction &#8212; as he practically spoon feeds fornication to an expecting audience.  But he&#8217;s also deliberately evasive.  My reading of what Dutcher tried to do does not brush off sin as irrelevant, but shifts the focus away from identifying and labeling the precise nature, details, and extent of the sinful act to the real power available in Christ for overcoming its effects, whatever they are.  Dutcher had way too many opportunities to confirm sexual transgression for his unwillingness to do so not to mean something.  Matt sees Dutcher vindicating pharisaic CES-types, where I suspect that he was relying upon the presumptuous, rush-to-judgment paradigm they embody and the audience&#8217;s awareness of Holly&#8217;s past sins to make a statement about how our obsession with diagnosing the clinical details of sinful acts is an obstacle to Atonement.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Evans</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/states-of-grace-spoilers/#comment-251528</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4412#comment-251528</guid>
		<description>I knew that States of Grace bombed at the box office, but didn&#039;t realize how badly.  According to &lt;a href=&quot;http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=godsarmy2.htm&quot;&gt;BoxOfficeMojo.com&lt;/a&gt;, States of Grace cost $800k to produce (marketing extra) and only grossed $59k.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I knew that States of Grace bombed at the box office, but didn&#8217;t realize how badly.  According to <a href="http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=godsarmy2.htm">BoxOfficeMojo.com</a>, States of Grace cost $800k to produce (marketing extra) and only grossed $59k.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Greenwood</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/states-of-grace-spoilers/#comment-251527</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Greenwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 15:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4412#comment-251527</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not close to being persuaded, Brad K.  You really have to be whistling in the dark to make the narrative &quot;just as easily point to a past transgression that he should have cleared up before serving, or to a non sexual sin that she simply convinced him he should confess and accept the consequences for.&quot;

Anyway, I think your approach weakens the atonement rather than strengthens it.  When we brush off sin as irrelevant, we diminish the atonement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not close to being persuaded, Brad K.  You really have to be whistling in the dark to make the narrative &#8220;just as easily point to a past transgression that he should have cleared up before serving, or to a non sexual sin that she simply convinced him he should confess and accept the consequences for.&#8221;</p>
<p>Anyway, I think your approach weakens the atonement rather than strengthens it.  When we brush off sin as irrelevant, we diminish the atonement.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Kramer</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/states-of-grace-spoilers/#comment-251525</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Kramer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:57:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4412#comment-251525</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m inclined to agree with Adam&#039;s analysis to the extent that we assume that fornication, in fact, took place.  But Dutcher bends over backward to evasively complicate that question.  Itâ€™s easy to assume that it was fornication, because he implicitly spoon feeds that to an audience that was conditioned to expect it. But sexual impropriety is never directly confirmed. 

The point is not that he is performing some masterful directorial sleight of hand and that there was no fornication; the point is that we donâ€™t actually know what happenedâ€“he never tells usâ€“that it doesnâ€™t really matter, and that our presumption of fornication is based in large part on the young womanâ€™s past and our quiet judgment of her and not on the actual evidence presented. The evidence given in the narrative itself could just as easily point to a past transgression that he should have cleared up before serving, or to a non sexual sin that she simply convinced him he should confess and accept the consequences for.  Dutcherâ€™s point is not (I think) that lackluster performance of mundane duties leads to fornication or other serious sins but that when we obsess over identifying and labeling the sinful act itself we miss out on the depth of Christâ€™s healing power.  

When the (alleged) adulteress was brought before the Savior, the evidentiary case against her was tenuous at best. Jesus did not even deal with the question of whether or not she had actually committed the sin in question because his power to heal (and to shame those who sought to use her alleged sinfulness as a pretext for punishing her publicly in the most self-righteous, self-congratulatory manner imaginable) extended infinitely beyond the limitations presumed by a fixation on the nature, extent, and details of her supposed crime.  

That said, I definitely agree that the directing in the final act was saccharine and rather ham-fisted--an entire group of adults spontaneously caught up in the collective effervescence of worshiping Ricky Bobby&#039;s baby Jesus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m inclined to agree with Adam&#8217;s analysis to the extent that we assume that fornication, in fact, took place.  But Dutcher bends over backward to evasively complicate that question.  Itâ€™s easy to assume that it was fornication, because he implicitly spoon feeds that to an audience that was conditioned to expect it. But sexual impropriety is never directly confirmed. </p>
<p>The point is not that he is performing some masterful directorial sleight of hand and that there was no fornication; the point is that we donâ€™t actually know what happenedâ€“he never tells usâ€“that it doesnâ€™t really matter, and that our presumption of fornication is based in large part on the young womanâ€™s past and our quiet judgment of her and not on the actual evidence presented. The evidence given in the narrative itself could just as easily point to a past transgression that he should have cleared up before serving, or to a non sexual sin that she simply convinced him he should confess and accept the consequences for.  Dutcherâ€™s point is not (I think) that lackluster performance of mundane duties leads to fornication or other serious sins but that when we obsess over identifying and labeling the sinful act itself we miss out on the depth of Christâ€™s healing power.  </p>
<p>When the (alleged) adulteress was brought before the Savior, the evidentiary case against her was tenuous at best. Jesus did not even deal with the question of whether or not she had actually committed the sin in question because his power to heal (and to shame those who sought to use her alleged sinfulness as a pretext for punishing her publicly in the most self-righteous, self-congratulatory manner imaginable) extended infinitely beyond the limitations presumed by a fixation on the nature, extent, and details of her supposed crime.  </p>
<p>That said, I definitely agree that the directing in the final act was saccharine and rather ham-fisted&#8211;an entire group of adults spontaneously caught up in the collective effervescence of worshiping Ricky Bobby&#8217;s baby Jesus.</p>
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