Comments on: Preaching to the Court House and Judging in the Temple http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/preaching-to-the-court-house-and-judging-in-the-temple/ Truth Will Prevail Fri, 25 May 2012 00:34:32 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Nate Oman http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/preaching-to-the-court-house-and-judging-in-the-temple/#comment-250299 Nate Oman Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:06:06 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4397#comment-250299 Paul: I have looked at the minutes of the Kirtland Teacher's Quorum. I didn't see them doing any adjudication, but they were clearly doing a lot of mediation. I have read minutes of the Kirtland Elders Quorum, which was clearly doing a lot of adjudicating. Also, Talmage talks a bit about priesthood quorum adjudication in his testimony before the Smoot Hearings. Paul: I have looked at the minutes of the Kirtland Teacher’s Quorum. I didn’t see them doing any adjudication, but they were clearly doing a lot of mediation. I have read minutes of the Kirtland Elders Quorum, which was clearly doing a lot of adjudicating. Also, Talmage talks a bit about priesthood quorum adjudication in his testimony before the Smoot Hearings.

]]> By: Paul Reeve http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/preaching-to-the-court-house-and-judging-in-the-temple/#comment-250296 Paul Reeve Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:57:20 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4397#comment-250296 Nate, I look forward to reading the paper. Thanks for sharing it. Did you uncover any evidence of Teacher's Quorum courts? The Hebron, Utah ward record includes the practice of the Teachers (an adult quorum, of course) as the first line of defense in dispute resolution (as per D&C 20). If the Teachers couldn't handle it, then it went to a bishop's court. I've never heard of this as a common practice or documented elsewhere. Nate, I look forward to reading the paper. Thanks for sharing it. Did you uncover any evidence of Teacher’s Quorum courts? The Hebron, Utah ward record includes the practice of the Teachers (an adult quorum, of course) as the first line of defense in dispute resolution (as per D&C 20). If the Teachers couldn’t handle it, then it went to a bishop’s court. I’ve never heard of this as a common practice or documented elsewhere.

]]> By: Nate Oman http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/preaching-to-the-court-house-and-judging-in-the-temple/#comment-250223 Nate Oman Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:45:24 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4397#comment-250223 Russ: Once you've read the paper, I would love to get your thoughts on how it adds to ZIC. I think of myself as building on Mangrum & Firmage's work. In particular, I tried to place both the rise and the decline of the Mormon judiciary in a broader context, showing how in many ways it emerged from a particular, discipline-oriented strand of Protestantism with roots in the Radical Reformation, and showing how its decline coincided with a growth in legal complexity, particularlly in the Western United States. Along the way, I also make some lawyer points, such as the way that the church court's lack of in rem remedies contributed to their decline, and the mechanisms by which early Utah territorial statutes conferred essentially all of the powers of secular courts on church courts. (Although I don't think that these statutes ever operated fully.) And so on. Read it and tell me what you think! Ronan: I haven't been following the controversy around the archbishop in particular, although I am interested in the application of shar'ia law in western legal systems. In principle, I don't have a problem with parties submitting disputes to shar'ia courts, although in practice their commercial law is woefully under-developed and some of their family law rules can be pretty harsh on divorcees and mothers. There are also some real issues of how consensual the parties submission to shar'ia courts is, although I am suspicious of those who assume coercion simply because the substantive rules differ widely from western norms. FWIW, there is a section in this paper where I compare Mormon "jurisprudence" in the nineteenth century (such as it was) with Islamic law, trying to tease out why Mormonism took the particular path that it did legally speaking. Russ: Once you’ve read the paper, I would love to get your thoughts on how it adds to ZIC. I think of myself as building on Mangrum & Firmage’s work. In particular, I tried to place both the rise and the decline of the Mormon judiciary in a broader context, showing how in many ways it emerged from a particular, discipline-oriented strand of Protestantism with roots in the Radical Reformation, and showing how its decline coincided with a growth in legal complexity, particularlly in the Western United States. Along the way, I also make some lawyer points, such as the way that the church court’s lack of in rem remedies contributed to their decline, and the mechanisms by which early Utah territorial statutes conferred essentially all of the powers of secular courts on church courts. (Although I don’t think that these statutes ever operated fully.) And so on. Read it and tell me what you think!

Ronan: I haven’t been following the controversy around the archbishop in particular, although I am interested in the application of shar’ia law in western legal systems. In principle, I don’t have a problem with parties submitting disputes to shar’ia courts, although in practice their commercial law is woefully under-developed and some of their family law rules can be pretty harsh on divorcees and mothers. There are also some real issues of how consensual the parties submission to shar’ia courts is, although I am suspicious of those who assume coercion simply because the substantive rules differ widely from western norms.

FWIW, there is a section in this paper where I compare Mormon “jurisprudence” in the nineteenth century (such as it was) with Islamic law, trying to tease out why Mormonism took the particular path that it did legally speaking.

]]> By: Ronan http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/preaching-to-the-court-house-and-judging-in-the-temple/#comment-250217 Ronan Sun, 17 Feb 2008 19:25:16 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4397#comment-250217 Nate, Slightly off topic, but you may have noticed the stink caused by the Archbishop of Canterbury's suggestion that some forms of sharia law be accepted in the UK. The idiot press have made it out to be an endorsement of flogging women, but the truth is simpler: why not let religious courts help settle civil disputes? Nate,
Slightly off topic, but you may have noticed the stink caused by the Archbishop of Canterbury’s suggestion that some forms of sharia law be accepted in the UK. The idiot press have made it out to be an endorsement of flogging women, but the truth is simpler: why not let religious courts help settle civil disputes?

]]> By: Russ Frandsen http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/02/preaching-to-the-court-house-and-judging-in-the-temple/#comment-250186 Russ Frandsen Sun, 17 Feb 2008 03:36:57 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4397#comment-250186 Nate, I have just downloaded your paper, but i have not read it yet. What have you found that is not covered in Firmage's book, Zion in the Courts? How do you differ in interpretation? Russ Frandsen Nate,

I have just downloaded your paper, but i have not read it yet. What have you found that is not covered in Firmage’s book, Zion in the Courts? How do you differ in interpretation?

Russ Frandsen

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