As another example, a few years back I was riding trains and buses across Pennsylvania with some frequency, and I became curious about the Amish who were often my fellow passengers. The book Plain and Amish: An Alternative to Modern Pessimism by Bernd Langin was quite informative. It’s special value was that it is a German book translated into English; the German author, who had written other material on German colonies abroad, had an instant credibility with his Amish subjects that an “English” American could not. Langin wrote, for instance, that the Amish who embraced him couldn’t believe that the Germans could have any cupability for World War II and figured the stories about Hitler had to be exaggerated propaganda. The Amish affinity for Germans is a bit funny given that they fled the German domain for a reason: they could practice their heretical religion in relative peace in America, and sure couldn’t do that in their homeland. The Amish are an example of a default mental entwining of religion and nationality even in the face of good reason to doubt the link.

Cicero (70) raises an interesting question on ideology which I need to study further. My first reaction would be to say that messages from above are ambivalent, even in the Scriptures. On the one hand the promises of glory, rule and kingship, on the other hand the admonitions towards humility and meekness. As to self-realization on earth, we would need a better analysis of Church messages, but I think there is strong evidence that encouragement towards self-realization (reaching objectives in life, progress, education, improving living standards, culture of awards and honors …) is pretty present in the Church literature and Church life, e.g. through examples of “achievers” (again, this is totally independent of a values assessment). On the other hand, we need to make the difference between self-realization and self-glorification (which would have a negative connotation).

Jon (71 & 72), I also think that the scouts program has little future in the Church abroad. Perhaps the Church will also distance itself from it in the future in the U.S. The “revelation” of how much local and regional scouts managers actually earn, big 6 figure salaries, mentioned a few months ago in the press in Utah, gave quite a backlash in comments — lots of people vowing that was the end of their giving to the scouts program.

John (73), indeed an interesting observation. It’s obvious nearly all churches / religions are tied to their birth place and it would take centuries to detach them from that origin. That’s what makes this topic so fascinating: to what extent can the Church ever be or become non-American? Denying its Americanisms does not change the essence.

I suspect this is connected with why the Mormon church is perceived by people in other lands as an American church: For them, all churches are national churches.

Jon

In large, American units, the LDS-BSA program works well, but if you’re not an American unit, or if you’re not in a large unit (which I’m currently dealing with in my own small Scouting program), it doesn’t work so well. I have at least one dad in my ward who was never big on Scouting, and he is convinced that it’s only a matter of time before the DTG program replaces the BSA completely as a YM program.

I don’t know that I agree with that prediction, based on a number of high-level leadership comments I’ve heard. But the Duty to God program appears to be the international answer to the failed export of the American LDS Scouting program. And personally, I think it’s a perfect solution — it encompasses all the good things that Scouting aims for, adds the specific LDS-religious aspect that Scouting lacks, is not hindered by the size of a unit, and is not tied to any outside organizations that might vary in strength and size.

This is probably the biggest example of an American church program (LDS-BSA) not exporting well to other countries. But just look at the great solution (DTG) that came out of it.

Jon

However, I think you are overstating the ideological aspect quite a bit. Primarily because American ideology isn’t nearly as uniform as you imply, nor is the Church as in sync with American ideology as you suggest.

I have never felt the Church promoting self-actualization or glorifying individualism in my life.

If anything I have always felt the Church has been a force in my life against those attitudes.

Scouting as such is of course an international endeavor, more usual in some countries than others. I know from Belgium (and other European countries) that the Catholic church has had a widespread scoutsprogram for decades. I recently read that the movement has been picking up again, after some diminishing in the 80s-90s. Of course, “scouting” is sometimes a little different than in the U.S. As I know it in Belgium in the Catholic church (groups often Catholic by name only) , it’s totally mixed for boys and girls, uniforms are more symbolic (very loose), it’s more the style of a youth club (including disco dance evenings, beer-drinking…), patriotism is out of the question as inappropriate for an organization which is supposed to promote peace (note that in smaller countries “patriotism” is sometimes sensed as a “threat from the outside” — too much experience with patriotic invaders). I’m sure that in other countries scouting might be more the “original disciplined style”.

I know they had Mormon scouting in Holland, perhaps still. In Belgium we tried it once in the sixties, but it floundered: the American-style, “disciplined” scouts group, with pretty strict uniform and goals to attain, flag raising etc. reminded some people too much of Nazi-youth. It probably also explains why the present scouts group have taken distance from that former style.

Is this a good example where the Church recognized that scouting was too American and thus not a good fit? Or was it something else?

Also, before the recent renovations of the Freiberg Temple (a truly “small” temple) in the baptistery, they had a stone-relief of oxen on the wall behind the small font, rather than an actual basin supported by oxen sculptures.

Along those lines, I remember visiting the Chicago Temple with my then-newlywed wife, and she asked for a pair of headphones so she could listen in German. The poor elderly sister gave her an odd look. In Freiberg, every week was a different language, but in Chicago they didn’t know what to do and had to scramble to find headphones and a receiver.

I’m wondering how American (or how BSA-oriented) the new “international” Duty to God and Personal Progress programs are. I’ll have to research the German version’s requirements tonight.

Jon