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	<title>Comments on: Mormonism&#8217;s Poisoned Theodicy</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/01/mormonisms-poisoned-theodicy/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/01/mormonisms-poisoned-theodicy/#comment-248539</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 02:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4371#comment-248539</guid>
		<description>I am going to close down comments on this thread now.  Thanks to everyone for their participation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am going to close down comments on this thread now.  Thanks to everyone for their participation.</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/01/mormonisms-poisoned-theodicy/#comment-248532</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 01:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4371#comment-248532</guid>
		<description>Wade: I&#039;m so glad that you spelled it out for me so that all of those years of teaching logic must have been lost on me. No it isn&#039;t a logical flaw or to assert that mental retardation is due to any condition, including pre-mortal existence. A logical contradiction requires two propositions that are not logically consistent so that one denies what the other affirms. You haven&#039;t shown that. There is no logical mistake in argumentation, and contrary to your claim, cognitive dissonance isn&#039;t necessarily a logical problem. Nor does it undermine any premises to assert that black males, together with others, are mentally challenged because of agreements made in the pre-mortal life. Admit it, you don&#039;t know what a logical problem would be, do you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wade: I&#8217;m so glad that you spelled it out for me so that all of those years of teaching logic must have been lost on me. No it isn&#8217;t a logical flaw or to assert that mental retardation is due to any condition, including pre-mortal existence. A logical contradiction requires two propositions that are not logically consistent so that one denies what the other affirms. You haven&#8217;t shown that. There is no logical mistake in argumentation, and contrary to your claim, cognitive dissonance isn&#8217;t necessarily a logical problem. Nor does it undermine any premises to assert that black males, together with others, are mentally challenged because of agreements made in the pre-mortal life. Admit it, you don&#8217;t know what a logical problem would be, do you?</p>
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		<title>By: Wade</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/01/mormonisms-poisoned-theodicy/#comment-248530</link>
		<dc:creator>Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 01:05:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4371#comment-248530</guid>
		<description>Blake,

&lt;i&gt;And why focus on the severely mentally retarded black males?&lt;/i&gt;

Your question explains your difficulty in comprehending my point.  I&#039;ll spell it out for you: pursuant to basic rules of logic it is fundamentally flawed reasoning to assert that blacks were denied the priesthood &lt;b&gt;due to&lt;/b&gt; their alleged equivocation or ambivalence in the premortal war while simultaneously explaining that those born with mental retardation were born with their condition &lt;b&gt;due to&lt;/b&gt; their valiant efforts in the war.  To so argue is to undermine the very premises upon which the categorical syllogism rests in the first place.  Why?  Simply because mental retardation unfortunately inflicts males from African descent as well as all other races in the world.  In other words, you can&#039;t have it both ways.  To put it still another way, one who actually believes this line of reasoning is under a double-dose of cognitive dissonance!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blake,</p>
<p><i>And why focus on the severely mentally retarded black males?</i></p>
<p>Your question explains your difficulty in comprehending my point.  I&#8217;ll spell it out for you: pursuant to basic rules of logic it is fundamentally flawed reasoning to assert that blacks were denied the priesthood <b>due to</b> their alleged equivocation or ambivalence in the premortal war while simultaneously explaining that those born with mental retardation were born with their condition <b>due to</b> their valiant efforts in the war.  To so argue is to undermine the very premises upon which the categorical syllogism rests in the first place.  Why?  Simply because mental retardation unfortunately inflicts males from African descent as well as all other races in the world.  In other words, you can&#8217;t have it both ways.  To put it still another way, one who actually believes this line of reasoning is under a double-dose of cognitive dissonance!</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/01/mormonisms-poisoned-theodicy/#comment-248525</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 00:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4371#comment-248525</guid>
		<description>Wade: the answer is: We don&#039;t know what God&#039;s actual reasons may have been. It is possible that they were so valiant that they needed only to obtain a body and that would fulfill the purpose of their existence. It is possible that they agreed to be the means so that others could learn. It is possible that nature just took its course. What is wrong with any of that? Your argument is really just a statement of  disbelief and doesn&#039;t show anything about why such reason is &quot;fundamentally flawed.&quot; In fact, thinking that you have given a reason when you&#039;ve only made statement is fundamentally flawed reasoning. And why focus on the severely mentally retarded black males?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wade: the answer is: We don&#8217;t know what God&#8217;s actual reasons may have been. It is possible that they were so valiant that they needed only to obtain a body and that would fulfill the purpose of their existence. It is possible that they agreed to be the means so that others could learn. It is possible that nature just took its course. What is wrong with any of that? Your argument is really just a statement of  disbelief and doesn&#8217;t show anything about why such reason is &#8220;fundamentally flawed.&#8221; In fact, thinking that you have given a reason when you&#8217;ve only made statement is fundamentally flawed reasoning. And why focus on the severely mentally retarded black males?</p>
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		<title>By: Wade</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/01/mormonisms-poisoned-theodicy/#comment-248504</link>
		<dc:creator>Wade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4371#comment-248504</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;I find myself especially uncomfortable with these premortal theodicies.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Indeed.  How does one who actually ascribes to this line of reasoning explain the status of all the severely mentally retarded black male children throughout the world who lived and died between 1830 and 1978?  Perhaps they were so valiant in the premortal battles that God sent them into the world as black males simply to undermine this line of reasoning which is fundamentally flawed (because they would be exalted anyway right)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;I find myself especially uncomfortable with these premortal theodicies.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Indeed.  How does one who actually ascribes to this line of reasoning explain the status of all the severely mentally retarded black male children throughout the world who lived and died between 1830 and 1978?  Perhaps they were so valiant in the premortal battles that God sent them into the world as black males simply to undermine this line of reasoning which is fundamentally flawed (because they would be exalted anyway right)?</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/01/mormonisms-poisoned-theodicy/#comment-248465</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:00:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4371#comment-248465</guid>
		<description>That when Free Will starts and stops.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That when Free Will starts and stops.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/01/mormonisms-poisoned-theodicy/#comment-248464</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4371#comment-248464</guid>
		<description>#117: I will give you your definitions of &quot;theodicy&#039;. You have certainly have earned them, and I have not. But I will hold open my thinking on free will stops, DNA, accidents, and the &#039;course and scope&#039; of God&#039;s plan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#117: I will give you your definitions of &#8220;theodicy&#8217;. You have certainly have earned them, and I have not. But I will hold open my thinking on free will stops, DNA, accidents, and the &#8216;course and scope&#8217; of God&#8217;s plan.</p>
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		<title>By: mmiles</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/01/mormonisms-poisoned-theodicy/#comment-248440</link>
		<dc:creator>mmiles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:30:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4371#comment-248440</guid>
		<description>Blake--
  I agee with 100%. Thanks for jumping in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blake&#8211;<br />
  I agee with 100%. Thanks for jumping in.</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/01/mormonisms-poisoned-theodicy/#comment-248439</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:26:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4371#comment-248439</guid>
		<description>Bob: # 115 &quot;But thatâ€™s what Theodicy is (?). It is a Secular way for looking for answers not provided by Christian thought.&quot; 

No Bob, that is not what theodicy is. It is unreasonable to ever ask someone to describe God&#039;s actual reasons for why any specific evil is allowed. The most that theodicy aspires to is to give a theoretical framework from the perspective of faith in which possibilities as to why God may allow evils to occur or why such things are not evil in further consideration. I assure you that I don&#039;t leave out free will and accident. However, I don&#039;t believe that anything that occurs is outside the scope of God&#039;s plan. You might want to check out my website where I have a paper on theodicy that was published in a Fetschrift  in Honor of Truman Madsen. It so happens that we exercise free will in the pre-mortal existence when we consent and agree to undergo certain kinds of experiences. There may be a good deal that is beyond God&#039;s power in LDS thought, but rearranging DNA, stopping speeding cars and curing cancer are not among them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob: # 115 &#8220;But thatâ€™s what Theodicy is (?). It is a Secular way for looking for answers not provided by Christian thought.&#8221; </p>
<p>No Bob, that is not what theodicy is. It is unreasonable to ever ask someone to describe God&#8217;s actual reasons for why any specific evil is allowed. The most that theodicy aspires to is to give a theoretical framework from the perspective of faith in which possibilities as to why God may allow evils to occur or why such things are not evil in further consideration. I assure you that I don&#8217;t leave out free will and accident. However, I don&#8217;t believe that anything that occurs is outside the scope of God&#8217;s plan. You might want to check out my website where I have a paper on theodicy that was published in a Fetschrift  in Honor of Truman Madsen. It so happens that we exercise free will in the pre-mortal existence when we consent and agree to undergo certain kinds of experiences. There may be a good deal that is beyond God&#8217;s power in LDS thought, but rearranging DNA, stopping speeding cars and curing cancer are not among them.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Cobabe</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/01/mormonisms-poisoned-theodicy/#comment-248432</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Cobabe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:17:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4371#comment-248432</guid>
		<description>#94:&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Why canâ€™t we just see them as individuals and love them for their individual uniqueness - rather than automatically placing them in am â€œother / themâ€ category?&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Perhaps the fact that this is a point of debate is an indicator.

In some ways, I think we must attribute this problem to the limited grasp of human understanding.  We assure each other that Heavenly Father loves each of His children impartially, is &quot;no respecter of persons&quot;.  But, we are not so endowed.  The capacity to fully understand and appreciate the multitude of talents and attributes that makes up each individual is far beyond human attainment.  With our limited spiritual and intellectual capactity, we do the best we can.

Thus we come up with general rules like eight years old for the &quot;age of accountability&quot;, though everyone can easily see that this rule does not apply, in every specific.  In order for general rules to function equitably, there must be an &quot;other&quot; category to handle the exceptions.

Recognizing that there are exceptions does not invalidate the rule.  It only underscores the importance of &quot;spirit of the law&quot; considerations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#94:<br />
<blockquote>&#8220;Why canâ€™t we just see them as individuals and love them for their individual uniqueness &#8211; rather than automatically placing them in am â€œother / themâ€ category?&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Perhaps the fact that this is a point of debate is an indicator.</p>
<p>In some ways, I think we must attribute this problem to the limited grasp of human understanding.  We assure each other that Heavenly Father loves each of His children impartially, is &#8220;no respecter of persons&#8221;.  But, we are not so endowed.  The capacity to fully understand and appreciate the multitude of talents and attributes that makes up each individual is far beyond human attainment.  With our limited spiritual and intellectual capactity, we do the best we can.</p>
<p>Thus we come up with general rules like eight years old for the &#8220;age of accountability&#8221;, though everyone can easily see that this rule does not apply, in every specific.  In order for general rules to function equitably, there must be an &#8220;other&#8221; category to handle the exceptions.</p>
<p>Recognizing that there are exceptions does not invalidate the rule.  It only underscores the importance of &#8220;spirit of the law&#8221; considerations.</p>
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