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	<title>Comments on: Givens&#8217; Winter Wheat</title>
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	<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/11/givens-winter-wheat/</link>
	<description>Truth Will Prevail</description>
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		<title>By: Janet</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/11/givens-winter-wheat/#comment-243341</link>
		<dc:creator>Janet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 19:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4256#comment-243341</guid>
		<description>Good questions, Ros. I may try a stab at the Catholic question, probably focused on Jesuit history since I&#039;ve absorbed some of it osmosis at SLU. The Catholic and Mormon organizational structures and cultural apparatus share commonalities, but I don&#039;t know how to compare our present religions so well as their histories. The histories--especially for the Jesuits--too easily faciliate a justifiably harsh anti-colonial but inevitably myopic anachronistic eye that I almost feel like talking about our histories simply throws a red herring into the path of understanding what we should do know, or what we are now. 

Oh Dear! Hmm, may not be making sense. I just reread the last sentence of previous paragraph and laughed aloud at how convoluted I sound. Haven&#039;t eaten all day and my blood sugar = low. Perhaps later. Overall, Catholicism does well. But the Catholic populace strikes me as more willing to approach the interface between culture and religion cafeteria style than do Mormons. Perhaps that&#039;s because they *have* such a long history and their faith has weathered (and, um, authored) so much cultural change--not to mention Vatican II. We&#039;re still such neophytes. 

Ok, eating now....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good questions, Ros. I may try a stab at the Catholic question, probably focused on Jesuit history since I&#8217;ve absorbed some of it osmosis at SLU. The Catholic and Mormon organizational structures and cultural apparatus share commonalities, but I don&#8217;t know how to compare our present religions so well as their histories. The histories&#8211;especially for the Jesuits&#8211;too easily faciliate a justifiably harsh anti-colonial but inevitably myopic anachronistic eye that I almost feel like talking about our histories simply throws a red herring into the path of understanding what we should do know, or what we are now. </p>
<p>Oh Dear! Hmm, may not be making sense. I just reread the last sentence of previous paragraph and laughed aloud at how convoluted I sound. Haven&#8217;t eaten all day and my blood sugar = low. Perhaps later. Overall, Catholicism does well. But the Catholic populace strikes me as more willing to approach the interface between culture and religion cafeteria style than do Mormons. Perhaps that&#8217;s because they *have* such a long history and their faith has weathered (and, um, authored) so much cultural change&#8211;not to mention Vatican II. We&#8217;re still such neophytes. </p>
<p>Ok, eating now&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde Welch</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/11/givens-winter-wheat/#comment-243321</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 05:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4256#comment-243321</guid>
		<description>Janet, I wonder what historical instances we can look to for insight into how ethnocentrism works in an international church ( ie, poorly or well). How would you classify the Catholic approach? The muslim approach? Are there any instructive parallels to be drawn?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Janet, I wonder what historical instances we can look to for insight into how ethnocentrism works in an international church ( ie, poorly or well). How would you classify the Catholic approach? The muslim approach? Are there any instructive parallels to be drawn?</p>
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		<title>By: Janet</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/11/givens-winter-wheat/#comment-243311</link>
		<dc:creator>Janet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 00:44:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4256#comment-243311</guid>
		<description>&quot;But I wonder if the international church is really yet to the point where the periphery is changing the cultural complexion of the core&quot;

Probably not, but the (often folk art) entries into the church art contest do give one hope. Ethnocentrism works poorly in an international church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But I wonder if the international church is really yet to the point where the periphery is changing the cultural complexion of the core&#8221;</p>
<p>Probably not, but the (often folk art) entries into the church art contest do give one hope. Ethnocentrism works poorly in an international church.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde Welch</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/11/givens-winter-wheat/#comment-243298</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:39:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Nate, do you really think that contemporary international Mormon art expresses the four tensions Givens works with? I&#039;m not an expert by any means, but my impression is that, in fact, it might not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nate, do you really think that contemporary international Mormon art expresses the four tensions Givens works with? I&#8217;m not an expert by any means, but my impression is that, in fact, it might not.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde Welch</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/11/givens-winter-wheat/#comment-243297</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:34:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Naomi, I&#039;m not exactly sure what you mean by &quot;Marxist overtones.&quot;  Givens is absolutely not a hardcore materialist---he doesn&#039;t see the means of production as the base of society and everything else as superstructure.  On the contrary, he&#039;s a bit of an ideologist: ideology is the base, and everything is merely superstructure. In this way he shares something in common with what&#039;s sometimes called &quot;cultural materialism&quot;---a school of criticism that descended, complicatedly and conflictedly, from Marxist thought---and with cultural studies generally. But the basic insight of Marxist theorists like Althusser is anti-humanist: human subjectivity is an illusion, a product of an ideological structural apparatus. And Givens doesn&#039;t go near anything like this: he&#039;s fundamentally a humanist, I think, but the question isn&#039;t an important part of his analysis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Naomi, I&#8217;m not exactly sure what you mean by &#8220;Marxist overtones.&#8221;  Givens is absolutely not a hardcore materialist&#8212;he doesn&#8217;t see the means of production as the base of society and everything else as superstructure.  On the contrary, he&#8217;s a bit of an ideologist: ideology is the base, and everything is merely superstructure. In this way he shares something in common with what&#8217;s sometimes called &#8220;cultural materialism&#8221;&#8212;a school of criticism that descended, complicatedly and conflictedly, from Marxist thought&#8212;and with cultural studies generally. But the basic insight of Marxist theorists like Althusser is anti-humanist: human subjectivity is an illusion, a product of an ideological structural apparatus. And Givens doesn&#8217;t go near anything like this: he&#8217;s fundamentally a humanist, I think, but the question isn&#8217;t an important part of his analysis.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde Welch</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/11/givens-winter-wheat/#comment-243296</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:28:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4256#comment-243296</guid>
		<description>East Coast, thanks for the great comment. Givens centers his discussion of Sorensen around her 1942 novel _A Little Lower than the Angels_.  The book follows its female protagonist, Mercy, through her struggles in the settlement of and expulsion from Nauvoo and her spiritual anguish over plural marriage. 

Sorensen fits uneasily into categories of Mormon art. Like Maureen Whipple and Fawn Brodie and Levi Peterson and many others, she was an insider-outsider: culturally affiliated with but philosophically and emotionally alienated from Mormonism. It&#039;s her insider/outsider status that makes her work &quot;high art&quot;---that is THE classic posture of literary fiction as it has developed in the 20th century---and it&#039;s also precisely what makes her, deep down, not so very Mormon. This is NOT to argue that she should be excluded from a Mormon canon or that her work shouldn&#039;t be understood from a Mormon framework---just to concede that the fit will not be perfect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>East Coast, thanks for the great comment. Givens centers his discussion of Sorensen around her 1942 novel _A Little Lower than the Angels_.  The book follows its female protagonist, Mercy, through her struggles in the settlement of and expulsion from Nauvoo and her spiritual anguish over plural marriage. </p>
<p>Sorensen fits uneasily into categories of Mormon art. Like Maureen Whipple and Fawn Brodie and Levi Peterson and many others, she was an insider-outsider: culturally affiliated with but philosophically and emotionally alienated from Mormonism. It&#8217;s her insider/outsider status that makes her work &#8220;high art&#8221;&#8212;that is THE classic posture of literary fiction as it has developed in the 20th century&#8212;and it&#8217;s also precisely what makes her, deep down, not so very Mormon. This is NOT to argue that she should be excluded from a Mormon canon or that her work shouldn&#8217;t be understood from a Mormon framework&#8212;just to concede that the fit will not be perfect.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde Welch</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/11/givens-winter-wheat/#comment-243294</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde Welch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:14:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4256#comment-243294</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the responses, all, and sorry I&#039;ve been unable to respond in a timely manner. 

Richard, your (mild and constructive) criticism is well taken. I suspect that Givens would respond by saying that yes, precisely, the constructs of high culture are insufficient to account for the ethnic and folk art that comes from the international church, and this is a major reason why he has largely excluded them from his analysis. As I argue in my review, I think think the book would benefit from foregrounding the assumptions behind his use of the word &quot;culture&quot;.  But I wonder if the international church is really yet to the point where the periphery is changing the cultural complexion of the core, to borrow a postcolonial vocabulary.  From my position, tucked into a midwest ward full of Utah transplants, I&#039;d have to say &quot;no,&quot; and for this reasons I wasn&#039;t too troubled by the omission of contemporary international art.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the responses, all, and sorry I&#8217;ve been unable to respond in a timely manner. </p>
<p>Richard, your (mild and constructive) criticism is well taken. I suspect that Givens would respond by saying that yes, precisely, the constructs of high culture are insufficient to account for the ethnic and folk art that comes from the international church, and this is a major reason why he has largely excluded them from his analysis. As I argue in my review, I think think the book would benefit from foregrounding the assumptions behind his use of the word &#8220;culture&#8221;.  But I wonder if the international church is really yet to the point where the periphery is changing the cultural complexion of the core, to borrow a postcolonial vocabulary.  From my position, tucked into a midwest ward full of Utah transplants, I&#8217;d have to say &#8220;no,&#8221; and for this reasons I wasn&#8217;t too troubled by the omission of contemporary international art.</p>
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		<title>By: Janet</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/11/givens-winter-wheat/#comment-243231</link>
		<dc:creator>Janet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4256#comment-243231</guid>
		<description>Excellent as always, Ros.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent as always, Ros.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate Oman</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/11/givens-winter-wheat/#comment-243229</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate Oman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:10:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4256#comment-243229</guid>
		<description>Because the international art deals with many of the themes that Givens discusses, and it would advance his thesis that Mormon culture cannot be understood simply as Utah culture or a subsection of American culture.  It also significantly changes ones interpretation of institutional invovlment in the production of Mormon art, moving from a narrative of the-church-only-buys-second-rate-and-maudlin-illustrations-by-seventh-day-adventists to one that acknowledges that through the Church Museum, the church as an institution has put substantial resources into fostering high quality Mormon art and has the largest such collection anywhere.  Given the fact that the book did spend some time analyzing the art in official church publications, the failure to flag the way that the Ensign has sought to give the collection at the church museum a higher profile within Mormonism seems worthy of note.

I don&#039;t think that this is a lapse that decisively undermines Terryl&#039;s analysis, and I realize that one can always make the complaint that the book should have been longer.  I think that it is a really great book; I just that on certain points I think that the cultural landscape is somewhat different than how Givens describes it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because the international art deals with many of the themes that Givens discusses, and it would advance his thesis that Mormon culture cannot be understood simply as Utah culture or a subsection of American culture.  It also significantly changes ones interpretation of institutional invovlment in the production of Mormon art, moving from a narrative of the-church-only-buys-second-rate-and-maudlin-illustrations-by-seventh-day-adventists to one that acknowledges that through the Church Museum, the church as an institution has put substantial resources into fostering high quality Mormon art and has the largest such collection anywhere.  Given the fact that the book did spend some time analyzing the art in official church publications, the failure to flag the way that the Ensign has sought to give the collection at the church museum a higher profile within Mormonism seems worthy of note.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that this is a lapse that decisively undermines Terryl&#8217;s analysis, and I realize that one can always make the complaint that the book should have been longer.  I think that it is a really great book; I just that on certain points I think that the cultural landscape is somewhat different than how Givens describes it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben H</title>
		<link>http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/11/givens-winter-wheat/#comment-243228</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:47:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4256#comment-243228</guid>
		<description>What about this book makes it relevant to say it is a weakness that it doesn&#039;t cover this competition? I mean, none of my writing does a reading of this issue of the Ensign. Is that an unfortunate weakness in my writing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about this book makes it relevant to say it is a weakness that it doesn&#8217;t cover this competition? I mean, none of my writing does a reading of this issue of the Ensign. Is that an unfortunate weakness in my writing?</p>
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