Comments on: Side Effects of Utah’s Voucher Program http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/side-effects-of-utahs-voucher-program/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 12 Feb 2012 07:57:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Matt Evans http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/side-effects-of-utahs-voucher-program/#comment-241717 Matt Evans Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:58:12 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4183#comment-241717 Dan, as Mark points out, Utah (and most other states) actually determines funding based on <i>daily</i> attendance. A kid stays home sick, the school district gets less money. Oh, and I think it's great that you're homeschooling. My pretended "criticisms" were based on the illogic of voucher opponents, and solely intended to demonstrate their illogic. If they oppose vouchers because it removes students and money from the government schools, they should oppose government policies that support homeschoolers, too. Dan, as Mark points out, Utah (and most other states) actually determines funding based on daily attendance. A kid stays home sick, the school district gets less money. Oh, and I think it’s great that you’re homeschooling. My pretended “criticisms” were based on the illogic of voucher opponents, and solely intended to demonstrate their illogic. If they oppose vouchers because it removes students and money from the government schools, they should oppose government policies that support homeschoolers, too.

]]> By: Mark D. http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/side-effects-of-utahs-voucher-program/#comment-241701 Mark D. Thu, 08 Nov 2007 07:02:47 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4183#comment-241701 Of course it is true that home schoolers and private school students reduce the total tax burden on the public at large...just that school districts do not get appropriations for students they do not educate. Of course it is true that home schoolers and private school students reduce the total tax burden on the public at large…just that school districts do not get appropriations for students they do not educate.

]]> By: Mark D. http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/side-effects-of-utahs-voucher-program/#comment-241700 Mark D. Thu, 08 Nov 2007 06:57:43 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4183#comment-241700 Dan, Not that I fault you in the slightest, but it appears that your attorney does not know what he is talking about. From Utah Code Title 53 Chapter 17a, the "Minimum School Program Act": <blockquote> (4) "Pupil in average daily membership (ADM)" means a full-day equivalent pupil.... (6)"Weighted pupil unit or units or WPU or WPUs" means the unit of measure of factors that is computed in accordance with this chapter for the purpose of determining the costs of a program on a uniform basis for each district. (Utah Code 53A-17a-103) </blockquote> <blockquote>Determination of weighted pupil units. The number of weighted pupil units in the minimum school program for each year is the total of the units for each school district determined as follows: (1) The number of units is computed by adding the <em>average daily membership of all pupils</em> of the district attending schools, other than kindergarten and self-contained classes for children with a disability. (2) The number of units is computed by adding the average daily membership of all pupils of the district enrolled in kindergarten and multiplying the total by .55. (Utah Code 53A-17a-106, emphasis added) </blockquote> State appropriations for education are allocated to school districts according to the number of weighted pupil units of each in order to meet state constitution requirements for equal education. By law, the weighted pupil unit is computed from full time equivalent class membership, i.e. public school <em>attendance</em>. There are no adjustments for home school students, private school students, or other non-attenders. Dan,

Not that I fault you in the slightest, but it appears that your attorney does not know what he is talking about. From Utah Code Title 53 Chapter 17a, the “Minimum School Program Act”:

(4) “Pupil in average daily membership (ADM)” means a full-day equivalent pupil….
(6)”Weighted pupil unit or units or WPU or WPUs” means the unit of measure of factors that is computed in accordance with this chapter for the purpose of determining the costs of a program on a uniform basis for each district. (Utah Code 53A-17a-103)

Determination of weighted pupil units.
The number of weighted pupil units in the minimum school program for each year is the total of the units for each school district determined as follows:
(1) The number of units is computed by adding the average daily membership of all pupils of the district attending schools, other than kindergarten and self-contained classes for children with a disability.
(2) The number of units is computed by adding the average daily membership of all pupils of the district enrolled in kindergarten and multiplying the total by .55. (Utah Code 53A-17a-106, emphasis added)

State appropriations for education are allocated to school districts according to the number of weighted pupil units of each in order to meet state constitution requirements for equal education. By law, the weighted pupil unit is computed from full time equivalent class membership, i.e. public school attendance. There are no adjustments for home school students, private school students, or other non-attenders.

]]> By: Dan http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/side-effects-of-utahs-voucher-program/#comment-241687 Dan Thu, 08 Nov 2007 01:35:05 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4183#comment-241687 Mark D. an Matt Evans, Actually you are both incorrect. I have checked into this legally (through our attorney) and my children's schools still receive the same amount of money as before because, in Utah, our students do not presently have an amount of money "attached to them". Whatever district we reside in, The only difference my choosing another option made was that now our School District has the same amount of funding (approx. $21,000) and 3 students less. As for the student to teacher ratio, I think it is a catch 22. Everyone complains about the amount of students in the classrooms, but when I pull my kids out, you assume you will lose money instead of thanking me for taking the extra time it requires to school them at home and for reducing the class size. The real issue shouldn't be whether or not it will cut out another teacher, but why the teacher to student ratio is so high in Utah. Dan Mark D. an Matt Evans,
Actually you are both incorrect. I have checked into this legally (through our attorney) and my children’s schools still receive the same amount of money as before because, in Utah, our students do not presently have an amount of money “attached to them”. Whatever district we reside in, The only difference my choosing another option made was that now our School District has the same amount of funding (approx. $21,000) and 3 students less. As for the student to teacher ratio, I think it is a catch 22. Everyone complains about the amount of students in the classrooms, but when I pull my kids out, you assume you will lose money instead of thanking me for taking the extra time it requires to school them at home and for reducing the class size. The real issue shouldn’t be whether or not it will cut out another teacher, but why the teacher to student ratio is so high in Utah.
Dan

]]> By: Matt Evans http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/side-effects-of-utahs-voucher-program/#comment-241658 Matt Evans Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:10:04 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4183#comment-241658 <i>3 school-aged children . . . I pulled them out of public school this year in order to homeschool them</i> Dan, you also realize that the districts now get less money because *you* pulled your kids out, right? By the convoluted logic of voucher opponents, your decision to homeschool costs Utah school districts around $18,000 to $22,000 a year, and to make your act worse, they insist the class size of your kids' former teachers didn't even go down! 3 school-aged children . . . I pulled them out of public school this year in order to homeschool them

Dan, you also realize that the districts now get less money because *you* pulled your kids out, right? By the convoluted logic of voucher opponents, your decision to homeschool costs Utah school districts around $18,000 to $22,000 a year, and to make your act worse, they insist the class size of your kids’ former teachers didn’t even go down!

]]> By: Mark D. http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/side-effects-of-utahs-voucher-program/#comment-241656 Mark D. Wed, 07 Nov 2007 13:57:56 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4183#comment-241656 Dan, You do realize that the cost of education has something to do with the number of students, right? Public schools in Utah are currently funded based on the number of students attending. So why should they be compensated (in the long run) for students who do not pass through their doors? Are hospitals compensated for patients they do not treat? Dan,

You do realize that the cost of education has something to do with the number of students, right? Public schools in Utah are currently funded based on the number of students attending. So why should they be compensated (in the long run) for students who do not pass through their doors? Are hospitals compensated for patients they do not treat?

]]> By: Ray http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/side-effects-of-utahs-voucher-program/#comment-241626 Ray Wed, 07 Nov 2007 01:11:15 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4183#comment-241626 "After all, what is the point of voting on something you don’t understand?" Complaining about the result. “After all, what is the point of voting on something you don’t understand?”

Complaining about the result.

]]> By: Dan http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/side-effects-of-utahs-voucher-program/#comment-241622 Dan Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:04:58 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4183#comment-241622 I have read through the bill for the vouchers twice. My 3 school-aged children will not be effected either way it turns out because I pulled them out of public school this year in order to homeschool them. As I am still taxed for education like every other citizen, I am going to make a decision as to whether or not I want vouchers in our state\'s system. I am voting today against referendum 1 because as I read the bill, it seemed to me that it was a LOSE-LOSE-LOSE situation. From what I read (and keep in mind that this was a very unbiased decision), 1) the public schools will LOSE some money now, and all money after 5 years, for each student who takes advantage of the vouchers, making it even harder on them to find and keep the excellent teachers we all desire our children to have involved in their education. Our family has school teachers and I know that they moved out of state because they couldn\'t afford to stay in Utah and work as school teachers. No matter how well the commercials may make the bill sound, the reality is that public schools will have less money to work with. 2) The parents who want to send their children to private schools but have never been able to afford this option, will LOSE because they will still have to come up with a considerable amount of additional money in order to fulfill this option. Therefore, it will not realistically be an option for those who it proclaims to be for, i.e. those who couldn\'t already afford private school. 3) The parents who are currently sending their children to private schools, along with the private schools that accept vouchers, will LOSE because private schools that were once competitive and willing to keep high standards in order to attract students will now have to follow whatever guidelines or criteria the public schools have to follow. The reason private schools do so well is, in part, because they are not bound by the conveyer belt system that our once well minded public school system has become. They will now be governed by all of the same agencies that are over the existing public school system. This will only cause the private schools to become more like the public school system (having to be more conerned about how test scores look to an agency rather than how parents percieve their children are really doing in school), defeating the whole purpose of creating a bill like this, which was to better the education options for all of our children. The idea of having options and more choices is very appealing. The idea of having money to go towards a noble cause and even benefit our current popular system of education is ideal... But it seems like this bill is not really about helping anyone who really needs help in this area, rather it seems to me to be a way towards more of a monopolized educational system and that makes me sad. I hope that all of you who voted today, either way, read the bill before voting. After all, what is the point of voting on something you don\'t understand? Dan I have read through the bill for the vouchers twice. My 3 school-aged children will not be effected either way it turns out because I pulled them out of public school this year in order to homeschool them. As I am still taxed for education like every other citizen, I am going to make a decision as to whether or not I want vouchers in our state\’s system. I am voting today against referendum 1 because as I read the bill, it seemed to me that it was a LOSE-LOSE-LOSE situation. From what I read (and keep in mind that this was a very unbiased decision), 1) the public schools will LOSE some money now, and all money after 5 years, for each student who takes advantage of the vouchers, making it even harder on them to find and keep the excellent teachers we all desire our children to have involved in their education. Our family has school teachers and I know that they moved out of state because they couldn\’t afford to stay in Utah and work as school teachers. No matter how well the commercials may make the bill sound, the reality is that public schools will have less money to work with. 2) The parents who want to send their children to private schools but have never been able to afford this option, will LOSE because they will still have to come up with a considerable amount of additional money in order to fulfill this option. Therefore, it will not realistically be an option for those who it proclaims to be for, i.e. those who couldn\’t already afford private school. 3) The parents who are currently sending their children to private schools, along with the private schools that accept vouchers, will LOSE because private schools that were once competitive and willing to keep high standards in order to attract students will now have to follow whatever guidelines or criteria the public schools have to follow. The reason private schools do so well is, in part, because they are not bound by the conveyer belt system that our once well minded public school system has become. They will now be governed by all of the same agencies that are over the existing public school system. This will only cause the private schools to become more like the public school system (having to be more conerned about how test scores look to an agency rather than how parents percieve their children are really doing in school), defeating the whole purpose of creating a bill like this, which was to better the education options for all of our children.
The idea of having options and more choices is very appealing. The idea of having money to go towards a noble cause and even benefit our current popular system of education is ideal… But it seems like this bill is not really about helping anyone who really needs help in this area, rather it seems to me to be a way towards more of a monopolized educational system and that makes me sad. I hope that all of you who voted today, either way, read the bill before voting. After all, what is the point of voting on something you don\’t understand?
Dan

]]> By: Rob http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/side-effects-of-utahs-voucher-program/#comment-241270 Rob Sat, 03 Nov 2007 04:48:02 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4183#comment-241270 I finally found my old Honor's Thesis from 1999. I feel like Prince. Anyway, It's about 13 posts total, starting with the Intro: http://jenirob.blogspot.com/2007/11/values-vouchers-and-education-reform-in.html As far as any savings Vouchers might bring, back when I ran the numbers, it was something like $16, per pupil, per $1000 voucher in actual savings. Which, when you look at the cost back then of educating a kid still was diddly. - Rob I finally found my old Honor’s Thesis from 1999. I feel like Prince.

Anyway, It’s about 13 posts total, starting with the Intro: http://jenirob.blogspot.com/2007/11/values-vouchers-and-education-reform-in.html

As far as any savings Vouchers might bring, back when I ran the numbers, it was something like $16, per pupil, per $1000 voucher in actual savings. Which, when you look at the cost back then of educating a kid still was diddly.

- Rob

]]> By: Rob http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/side-effects-of-utahs-voucher-program/#comment-240464 Rob Sun, 28 Oct 2007 06:49:30 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4183#comment-240464 Mark # 41, I hear Libertarian Mormons are the next soccer moms. Mark # 41, I hear Libertarian Mormons are the next soccer moms.

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