Comments on: Abdullah’s Bold Move in Faithful Education http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/abdullahs-bold-move-in-faithful-education/ Truth Will Prevail Thu, 24 May 2012 19:37:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Ben H http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/abdullahs-bold-move-in-faithful-education/#comment-240716 Ben H Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:10:43 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4201#comment-240716 David Clark (#14), I'll grant that universities are a product of the determination to develop religious and secular thought alongside one another. Where did the ancient secular thought come from that sparked the Renaissance? A lot of it came from the Middle East, where it had been preserved, responded to, and added to. Thomas Aquinas was responding to Averroes, Al-Ghazali, Al-Farabi, Maimonides . . . Maybe it's time to pass the torch back. Yes, the Renaissance happened largely outside of universities. There were hardly any universities at the time anyway. The people carrying forward the Renaissance (and much of the scientific work up through the 19th Century) were wealthy elites with leisure to spend and a certain ideal of noble cultivation. But nowadays the wealthy elites send their kids to universities, and universities are engines of social change to a significant degree. Or engines of social degeneration; that's one kind of change . . . Anyway, it seems to me a totally natural move today to build a community around a university and try to cultivate a new culture. David Clark (#14), I’ll grant that universities are a product of the determination to develop religious and secular thought alongside one another. Where did the ancient secular thought come from that sparked the Renaissance? A lot of it came from the Middle East, where it had been preserved, responded to, and added to. Thomas Aquinas was responding to Averroes, Al-Ghazali, Al-Farabi, Maimonides . . . Maybe it’s time to pass the torch back.

Yes, the Renaissance happened largely outside of universities. There were hardly any universities at the time anyway. The people carrying forward the Renaissance (and much of the scientific work up through the 19th Century) were wealthy elites with leisure to spend and a certain ideal of noble cultivation. But nowadays the wealthy elites send their kids to universities, and universities are engines of social change to a significant degree. Or engines of social degeneration; that’s one kind of change . . . Anyway, it seems to me a totally natural move today to build a community around a university and try to cultivate a new culture.

]]> By: Bob http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/abdullahs-bold-move-in-faithful-education/#comment-240520 Bob Mon, 29 Oct 2007 05:23:19 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4201#comment-240520 #16: This confirms my friend's view of AUB. I guess I am most fearful of our lack of understanding of the Middle East ( And China, etc.). Thanks for some insight. #16: This confirms my friend’s view of AUB. I guess I am most fearful of our lack of understanding of the Middle East ( And China, etc.). Thanks for some insight.

]]> By: Non-Arab Arab http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/abdullahs-bold-move-in-faithful-education/#comment-240516 Non-Arab Arab Mon, 29 Oct 2007 04:25:50 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4201#comment-240516 AUB and AUC (and apparently AUS in Sharjah) are all good schools, but they are also schools of a thin crust of westernized elites. AUB is also quite sharply divided along sectarian lines (as are most things in Lebanon). We'll see if KAUST becomes better than other Saudi schools or as elitist as AUB and AUC have become. I was about to go point by point through many of the comments here, but let me instead simply recommend a book. "America's Kingdom: Mythmaking on the Saudi Oil Frontier" by Bob Vitalis. Essential reading for anyone who wants to get a better kingdom of the background to the development of the Saudi state, Aramco, and relations with the US. I have never found a better book on the topic. Want to know why the system is so ossified? Read: http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Kingdom-Mythmaking-Frontier-Stanford/dp/0804754462/ref=sr_1_1/105-0005598-0711642?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193502284&sr=8-1 Oh, and btw, the Saudi balance sheet is quite healthy. While it's nowhere near as good as the UAE's or Qatar's, the Saudis now have substantial foreign resevers to weather another downturn in the oil price. You can expect their economy to do much better than ours when the next global recession hits. AUB and AUC (and apparently AUS in Sharjah) are all good schools, but they are also schools of a thin crust of westernized elites. AUB is also quite sharply divided along sectarian lines (as are most things in Lebanon). We’ll see if KAUST becomes better than other Saudi schools or as elitist as AUB and AUC have become.

I was about to go point by point through many of the comments here, but let me instead simply recommend a book. “America’s Kingdom: Mythmaking on the Saudi Oil Frontier” by Bob Vitalis. Essential reading for anyone who wants to get a better kingdom of the background to the development of the Saudi state, Aramco, and relations with the US. I have never found a better book on the topic. Want to know why the system is so ossified? Read:

http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Kingdom-Mythmaking-Frontier-Stanford/dp/0804754462/ref=sr_1_1/105-0005598-0711642?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193502284&sr=8-1

Oh, and btw, the Saudi balance sheet is quite healthy. While it’s nowhere near as good as the UAE’s or Qatar’s, the Saudis now have substantial foreign resevers to weather another downturn in the oil price. You can expect their economy to do much better than ours when the next global recession hits.

]]> By: Bob http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/abdullahs-bold-move-in-faithful-education/#comment-240512 Bob Mon, 29 Oct 2007 02:54:14 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4201#comment-240512 #13: You ask a lot for one school, especially if it is going to be for graduates "primarily oriented toward science and technology". I have had friends from the American University of Beirut. Is this what is hoped for? ( I believe it is a good school*?*) I too try to avoid stereotypes But, I just don't see the King wanting a 'Berkeley' in his Kingdom. #13: You ask a lot for one school, especially if it is going to be for graduates “primarily oriented toward science and technology”. I have had friends from the American University of Beirut. Is this what is hoped for? ( I believe it is a good school*?*) I too try to avoid stereotypes But, I just don’t see the King wanting a ‘Berkeley’ in his Kingdom.

]]> By: David Clark http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/abdullahs-bold-move-in-faithful-education/#comment-240510 David Clark Mon, 29 Oct 2007 02:39:54 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4201#comment-240510 <i>The Middle East can’t consciously retrace the same steps and probably wouldn’t want to, seeing how it turned out. They’ll have to find their own path.</i> No they can't recapitulate everything that the west did. What I was saying was metaphorical. The point I am making is that in the high middle ages the west consciously decided to continue the study of secular philosophy while the Islamic world decided to jettison this in favor of religious fundamentalism. From that point on in the west you get Renaissance, scientific revolution etc. organically and incrementally. They have to do _something_ equivalent to change attitudes and values. My secondary point would be that universities do not create these values, they are a product of these values. The medieval university developed because scholars valued secular philosophy _and_ theology. The Renaissance, Scientific Revolution, and the Enlightenment largely happened outside of the university, the universities were still busy reading Aristotle, only later did the universities get dragged into the modern age. I don't think you can do this in reverse, have the universities create the values which then infiltrate into the larger culture, which is what Abdullah is trying to do. <i>If someone could just build a community where the ones like that could get together, with resources to do things differently</i>. The enlightened despot approach to social change just doesn't work very well, and it certainly isn't go to work at all with a few universities and not much in the way of real social, legal, and political reform. I don't see much of that happening in Saudi Arabia. One thing is for certain they had better act quickly. The higher that gas prices go the better it is good for them in the short term, the very bad for long term financial solvency. Once it is worth someone's while to invent the products that wean the U.S. off of foreign oil (via domestic shale, nuclear, solar etc.) Saudi Arabia will face hard economic times unless it has developed a diversified and stable economy not based on petrol dollars. I hope it happens, but I am not optimistic. The Middle East can’t consciously retrace the same steps and probably wouldn’t want to, seeing how it turned out. They’ll have to find their own path. No they can’t recapitulate everything that the west did. What I was saying was metaphorical. The point I am making is that in the high middle ages the west consciously decided to continue the study of secular philosophy while the Islamic world decided to jettison this in favor of religious fundamentalism. From that point on in the west you get Renaissance, scientific revolution etc. organically and incrementally. They have to do _something_ equivalent to change attitudes and values. My secondary point would be that universities do not create these values, they are a product of these values. The medieval university developed because scholars valued secular philosophy _and_ theology. The Renaissance, Scientific Revolution, and the Enlightenment largely happened outside of the university, the universities were still busy reading Aristotle, only later did the universities get dragged into the modern age. I don’t think you can do this in reverse, have the universities create the values which then infiltrate into the larger culture, which is what Abdullah is trying to do.

If someone could just build a community where the ones like that could get together, with resources to do things differently. The enlightened despot approach to social change just doesn’t work very well, and it certainly isn’t go to work at all with a few universities and not much in the way of real social, legal, and political reform. I don’t see much of that happening in Saudi Arabia. One thing is for certain they had better act quickly. The higher that gas prices go the better it is good for them in the short term, the very bad for long term financial solvency. Once it is worth someone’s while to invent the products that wean the U.S. off of foreign oil (via domestic shale, nuclear, solar etc.) Saudi Arabia will face hard economic times unless it has developed a diversified and stable economy not based on petrol dollars. I hope it happens, but I am not optimistic.

]]> By: Ben H http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/abdullahs-bold-move-in-faithful-education/#comment-240507 Ben H Mon, 29 Oct 2007 01:58:28 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4201#comment-240507 This "science finds every soil barren" line sounds like a discourse of faith, not science. Sure, lots of scientists have had this kind of faith, but lots have had other kinds. Isaac Newton wrote more theology than he did physics. Empirically, this anti-religious faith doesn't hold up. Anyway, I'm sure KAUST isn't going to expect all its faculty to be Muslim. That would be silly. Abdullah is excluding the religious police. I get the feeling commenters haven't read the stuff I linked to. It's hard to know what it must look like to y'all, though, since several of my best friends growing up were Muslim (Riyadh, 1979-1986). Let's just say I know there are a lot of very smart Muslims out there who do not fit the stereotypes. If someone could just build a community where the ones like that could get together, with resources to do things differently . . . This “science finds every soil barren” line sounds like a discourse of faith, not science. Sure, lots of scientists have had this kind of faith, but lots have had other kinds. Isaac Newton wrote more theology than he did physics. Empirically, this anti-religious faith doesn’t hold up.

Anyway, I’m sure KAUST isn’t going to expect all its faculty to be Muslim. That would be silly. Abdullah is excluding the religious police. I get the feeling commenters haven’t read the stuff I linked to. It’s hard to know what it must look like to y’all, though, since several of my best friends growing up were Muslim (Riyadh, 1979-1986). Let’s just say I know there are a lot of very smart Muslims out there who do not fit the stereotypes. If someone could just build a community where the ones like that could get together, with resources to do things differently . . .

]]> By: Adam Greenwood http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/abdullahs-bold-move-in-faithful-education/#comment-240505 Adam Greenwood Mon, 29 Oct 2007 01:51:59 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4201#comment-240505 Nazi science sneers at your ecumenicism. Nazi science sneers at your ecumenicism.

]]> By: Bob http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/abdullahs-bold-move-in-faithful-education/#comment-240485 Bob Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:51:24 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4201#comment-240485 #10: I think Christians, Jews, Arabs, Commies, Nazis, Evangelics, Atheists, all can do science well. #10: I think Christians, Jews, Arabs, Commies, Nazis, Evangelics, Atheists, all can do science well.

]]> By: quandmeme http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/abdullahs-bold-move-in-faithful-education/#comment-240460 quandmeme Sun, 28 Oct 2007 05:38:50 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4201#comment-240460 I have to plug the Physics Today article that argues that the muslim word cannot just throw money and achieve progress. [via slashdot ] FTA: "Science finds every soil barren in which miracles are taken literally and seriously and revelation is considered to provide authentic knowledge of the physical world. If the scientific method is trashed, no amount of resources or loud declarations of intent to develop science can compensate. In those circumstances, scientific research becomes, at best, a kind of cataloging or "butterfly-collecting" activity. It cannot be a creative process of genuine inquiry in which bold hypotheses are made and checked." I hope this is more of a segue than a threadjack, but can I ask how this type of critique/prognosis applies to our seeking out knowledge. Personally, my answer comes down to the distinction between spirituality and religion. I posit that spiritually devote individuals do not stop seeking just because they take miracles and supernatural revelation literally. (Am I just imposing my kind of spirituality on the supposition: Alma 32 is very scientific method, IMO.) I think that is when there is a community or an especially conservative religion that allocations of resources and priorities at the group level redirect resources from empirical creativity. I have to plug the Physics Today article that argues that the muslim word cannot just throw money and achieve progress. [via slashdot ]
FTA: “Science finds every soil barren in which miracles are taken literally and seriously and revelation is considered to provide authentic knowledge of the physical world. If the scientific method is trashed, no amount of resources or loud declarations of intent to develop science can compensate. In those circumstances, scientific research becomes, at best, a kind of cataloging or “butterfly-collecting” activity. It cannot be a creative process of genuine inquiry in which bold hypotheses are made and checked.”

I hope this is more of a segue than a threadjack, but can I ask how this type of critique/prognosis applies to our seeking out knowledge.

Personally, my answer comes down to the distinction between spirituality and religion. I posit that spiritually devote individuals do not stop seeking just because they take miracles and supernatural revelation literally. (Am I just imposing my kind of spirituality on the supposition: Alma 32 is very scientific method, IMO.) I think that is when there is a community or an especially conservative religion that allocations of resources and priorities at the group level redirect resources from empirical creativity.

]]> By: Ben H http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/10/abdullahs-bold-move-in-faithful-education/#comment-240454 Ben H Sun, 28 Oct 2007 04:19:28 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4201#comment-240454 The usual routine in Saudi education presumably wouldn't result in anything remarkable. But it looks like this is a serious effort to do something different, to run the place much like a Western university. The NYT article details some of the differences from the usual routine. The way it is being built as a whole new community suggests the intent is to make a fresh start. Events of the past few years have led the Saudi government to make some striking changes on other fronts. Perhaps they have really gotten the message that change is necessary. It's a huge job to do it right, sure. Really, though, it all depends on what faculty and administrators they can bring in. There are a few things that should be non-negotiable based on who is sponsoring it. There are many things that will be non-negotiable for the kind of faculty the place is supposed to draw in. The list of <a href="http://www.kaust.edu.sa/about/symposium.aspx" rel="nofollow">speakers at their opening symposium</a> is an impressive bunch. If they actually listen to the advice of current and former presidents of MIT, Cornell, etc. they may be able to pull it off. Between the cultural gravity of the American university system, and the cultural gravity of the Arab world, maybe the place will have just the dynamic tension needed to do something really helpful. Sure, there are plenty of reasons why the place could be a big disappointment. But if something good is going to happen, it has to start somewhere. Why not here? The usual routine in Saudi education presumably wouldn’t result in anything remarkable. But it looks like this is a serious effort to do something different, to run the place much like a Western university. The NYT article details some of the differences from the usual routine. The way it is being built as a whole new community suggests the intent is to make a fresh start. Events of the past few years have led the Saudi government to make some striking changes on other fronts. Perhaps they have really gotten the message that change is necessary. It’s a huge job to do it right, sure. Really, though, it all depends on what faculty and administrators they can bring in. There are a few things that should be non-negotiable based on who is sponsoring it. There are many things that will be non-negotiable for the kind of faculty the place is supposed to draw in. The list of speakers at their opening symposium is an impressive bunch. If they actually listen to the advice of current and former presidents of MIT, Cornell, etc. they may be able to pull it off. Between the cultural gravity of the American university system, and the cultural gravity of the Arab world, maybe the place will have just the dynamic tension needed to do something really helpful.

Sure, there are plenty of reasons why the place could be a big disappointment. But if something good is going to happen, it has to start somewhere. Why not here?

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