“Ray, I don’t make any claims that you worship Joseph Smith. Ok? But my question is when push comes to shove, does Joseph Smith’s words trump either biblical prophets or apostles or even Christ’s words as recorded in the Bible. And if so, could you not give understanding to where this might be “shameful” or “belittling” or “ugly” or “offensive” or “hypocritical” to a sincere biblical Christian?”

So while he placates and says, no you don’t worship Joseph, he then goes on and explains that we do. After all, Joseph can change the words of Christ! That is called a straw man argument. Todd or whomever sets up that we believe that Joseph is greater than Christ, provides a false argument for validating that (we know that he JST of the Bible corrected back to the original words of Christ, not changing them from the original as Todd would claim) then bravely knocks down that straw man. He can then say, ‘see they are wrong after all’ and is not bothered by the facts or context of what was actually said.

Our job is only to relay truth. Joseph Smith is the most important prophet ever – to us. He is the one who opened our dispensation. so he is like Moses, Abraham and the others, they were the most important to their times.

When it comes to Joseph Smith, yes there are negatives to dwell on. If one wishes to focus on those and lose the blessings of the priesthood, gift of the holy ghost, the temple, ect,….well, I know the truth about Joseph Smith. I know that many of his mistakes were committed under the context of a young, uneducated man who was called to a position that was way over his head and I would be shocked if he had done everything right. If someone does not agree, fine, but I personally feel no need at all to convince others of this. The Lord stated that he sheep would know his voice, why are we trying to apologize or explain away the person Christ himself called to open this dispensation. And not singing Praise to the Man, it never ceases to amaze how people can find evil everywhere, even in a song sung by every prophet since BYoung. (I weighed out marcus and keri versus BYoung, JTaylor, WWoodruff, GASmith, HJGrant, DOMckay, JFSmith, JFSmith, SWKimball, HBLee, ETBenson, HWHunter, GBHinckley and TSMonson and lets just say, I’ll keep singing it.)

John Pratt (pratttjw@mail.manti.com)

Verily, verily I say unto you, that my servant Baurak Ale (Joseph Smith, Jun.), is the man to whom I likened the servant to whom the Lord of the vineyard spake in the parable which I have given unto you. (Doctrine and Covenants 103:21)

And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, . . . (Doctrine and Covenants 85:7)

Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand. (Isaiah 28:2)

You will gather many people into the fastness of the Rocky Mountains as a center for the gathering of the people, and you will be faithful because you have been true; and many of those who come under your ministry, because of their much learning, will seek for high positions, and they will be set up and raise themselves in eminence above you, but you will walk in low places unnoticed and you will know all that transpires in their midst, and those that are my friends will be your friends. This I will promise to you, that when I come again to lead you forth, for I will go to prepare a place for you, so that where I am you shall be with me. (Joseph Smith, quoted in “Diary of John E Forsgren,” Fate of the Persecutors of Joseph Smith, N.B. Lundwall, pg. 154)

My servant Joseph Smith still holds the keys of my kingdom in this dispensation, and he shall stand in due time on the earth, in the flesh, and fulfill that to which he is appointed. (Revelation to Apostle Parley Pratt while walking in Illinois on the road back to Nauvoo after the martyrdom, Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, pg. 368)

So it is with the Prophet Joseph Smith. He has gone before with the keys of this dispensation, after having lived and conferred them upon the authorities of the church, even all that was necessary until he shall come again to build up this kingdom preparatory to the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Apostle Franklin D. Richards, August 30, 1885, JD 26:302)

But we still were in hopes that he (Joseph Smith) would live and that he would be the man who, like Moses, would lead this people from bondage. I do not know but he will yet. God’s arm is not shortened that he cannot raise him up even from the tomb. (Apostle Orson Pratt, March 9, 1873, JD 15:363)

From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and he was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—”Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true. I will now tell you something that ought to comfort every man and woman on the face of the earth. Joseph Smith junior, will again be on this earth dictating plans and calling forth his brethren to be baptized for the very characters who wish this was not so, in order to bring them into a kingdom . . . (President Brigham Young, October 9, 1859, JD 7:289)

But I am learned, and know more than all the world put together. The Holy Ghost does anyhow, and he is within me, and comprehends more than all the world; and I will associate myself with him. (Joseph Smith, “King Follett Discourse”, Given 7 April 1844, Reported in Times and Seasons, 15 August 1844)

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (“Scriptural Items”, F. D. Richards, The Words of Joseph Smith, Ehat/Cook, pg. 245)

Now concerning the organization of the kingdom of God [which] is brought to pass. The Savior told his disciples as he [has] seen the Father do, so does he, and as Joseph Smith [has] seen Jesus do, so did Joseph do, and as I [have] seen Joseph do, so do I also. (President Brigham Young, December 1844, George Laub’s Nauvoo Journal, BYU Studies 18:177-178)

Many men will say, “I will never forsake you, but will stand by you at all times,” but the moment you teach them some of the mysteries of the kingdom of God that are retained in the heavens, and are prepared for them, they will be the first to stone you and put you to death. It was this same principle that crucified the Lord Jesus Christ, and will cause the people to kill the prophets in this generation. Would to God, brethren, I could tell you who I am! Would to God I could tell you what I know! But you would call it blasphemy, and there are men upon this stand who would want to take my life. (Joseph Smith, Jr., as quoted by Heber C. Kimball, Life of Heber C. Kimball, by Orson F. Whitney, pg. 322-323)

The Jews answered him [Jesus], saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (John 10:33)

Oh ye learned doctors and lawyers who have persecuted me, I want to let you know that the Holy Ghost knows something as well as you do. (Joseph Smith, April 7, 1844, “King Follett Discourse”)

Like the sun in his meridian splendor, Joseph Smith shown [shone] as full man at home, among his friends, in the field, on the bench, or before the world. [He] a pattern parent; a worthy friend; a model general; a righteous judge, and the wisest man of the age, sustained by Truth, and “God was his right hand man.” Surely, as one of the Holy Ones commissioned by his Father among the Royal Seventy, when the High Council of Heaven set them apart to come down and “multiply and replenish the earth,” he was the “last,” and who knows but the “greatest,” for he declared—we—knew not who he was! So, I may say, as the last is to be first, and the first last in eternal rotation, that Joseph Smith, who was Gazelam [seer—see Alma 37:23, D&C 78:9, 82:11, 104:26, 43] in the spirit world, was, and is, and will be in the endless progress of eternity: —The Prince of Light. ‘Tis so, and who can dispute it! (W. W. Phelps, speaking at the funeral of the Prophet Joseph Smith, June 29, 1844, BYU Studies vol. 23, Winter 1983, 12, also “President Brigham Young’s Doctrine on Deity, Collier, p. 250)

Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. . . . The testators are now dead, and their testament is in force. (D&C 135:3, 5, written by John Taylor)

I teach the people that Joseph Smith was greater than any other Prophet that ever lived, except Jesus Christ. (President B. Young: “That is true. How can it be otherwise?”) It can’t; and I tell you that he is just as active to-day as ever he was, and he can do more for this people and for the cause of Zion than he could when here. In the days of Israel of old, and in all former dispensations, there have been many Prophets; but Joseph Smith stands at the head of this, which is a dispensation of all dispensations: it will comprehend and complete the unfinished work of all former days. (John Young, April 8, 1857, JD 6:231-232)

The Holy Ghost is a man; he is one of the sons of our Father and our God; and he is the man that stood next to Jesus Christ, just as I stand by brother Brigham. (Heber C. Kimball, August 23, 1857, JD 5:179)

Who can justly say aught against Joseph Smith? I was as well acquainted with him, as any man. I do not believe that his father and mother knew him any better than I did. I do not think that a man lives on the earth that knew him any better than I did; and I am bold to say that, Jesus Christ excepted, no better man ever lived or does live upon this earth. I am his witness. (Brigham Young, August 3, 1862, JD 9:332)

It was not necessary for Joseph Smith to be killed, if the people had believed his testimony; but as the testator has sealed it with his blood, his testimony is in force on all the inhabitants of the earth, and wherever it goes those who reject it will be damned. (Brigham Young, August 12, 1866, JD 11:257)

Some of Joseph’s wives thought they had the Holy Ghost for a bed fellow. (Joseph H. Jackson, August 1844, “Guide to Mormon Diaries & Autobiographies,” p. 172)

We have just been listening to the testimony of one of the Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, also an Apostle of him whom the Lord has called in our day to establish his kingdom no more to be overcome by wickedness on the earth. To say that we are Apostles of Joseph Smith is rather a dark saying to many. Jesus Christ being sent of the Father to perform a certain work, became an Apostle. (Brigham Young, August 31, 1862, JD 9:364)

I am Brigham Young, an Apostle of Joseph Smith, and also of Jesus Christ. (Brigham Young, October 6, 1857, JD 5:296)

What is the nature and beauty of Joseph’s mission? You know that I am one of his Apostles. (Brigham Young, October 7, 1857, JD 5:330)

But the Mormon prophet [Joseph Smith] invoked the Holy Ghost of the ancient Hebrews, and burst the sealed heavens. The Holy Ghost came, and His apostles published the news abroad. (Eliza R. Snow Smith with Edward Tullidge, The Women of Mormondom, 1877, p. 21)

Joseph Smith was an unlettered youth. He came not in the polished form of wisdom—either divine or human—but in the demonstration of the Holy Ghost, and with signs following the believer. (Eliza R. Snow Smith with Edward Tullidge, Women of Mormondom, 1877, p. 39)

I arose and spoke to the people, my hart [sic] was swollen with compassion towards them by the power of the Holy g[h]ost even the Spirit of the Prophet, I was enabled to comfort the harts [sic] of the saints. (Diary of Brigham Young, August 18, 1844, p. 49, LDS Historical Dept.)

Joseph has always been preserved from his enemies, until now, but he has sealed his testimony with his blood, and his testament is now in force. While the Testator lived it was all in his hands, but now he is dead. (Brigham Young, August 18, 1844, Teachings of President Brigham Young, Collier, 1:1;8;18;44)

Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth, and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth; these personages, according to Abraham’s record, are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the witness or Testator. (Prophet Joseph Smith, TPJS, p. 190)

He [President Young] next showed how the saints are delivered up in their progress from those who give them up to the high council, and from the high council to the prophet, and from the prophet to the son, the elder brother, and from the son to his father. (Brigham Young, October 6, 1944, in General Conference, DHC 7:287)

That is why I am going there when I go or else they may just as well keep me here, but there will be a time of peace, rest, joy and glory, but I will not rest as I have told you many times until every spirit bows in reverence to our Father and to Jesus His Son…(with deep emotion)…and to Joseph, the Prophet. I will not rest until that trinity is placed in its proper place and praise and glory given to them forever and forever. * * * “Do not fear, my brethren, for when these things are happening to you, when evil men and women despitefully use and accuse you and bring you and your name and character into disrepute, remember they did this to me before they did it to you.” This is a wonderful consolation, that they did this to Father Adam, to Jesus Christ, to Joseph Smith, before they have done it to us. * * * These are tears of joy, dear people. I seldom have tears of sadness, but I have wept worlds of tears of joy for this great work; and I feel like shouting to all and wish my words to be heard, HALLELUJAH, HALLELUJAH, GLORY BE TO ADAM OUR FATHER AND OUR GOD, TO JESUS CHRIST HIS SON, AND TO THEIR BELOVED JOSEPH! FOREVER AND FOREVER, AMEN AND AMEN! (Apostle John W. Taylor, discourse in SL Tabernacle, 1888, Church Archives, caps in original, emphasis added)

I never told you I was perfect—but there is no error in the revelations which I have taught—must I then be thrown away as a thing of naught? —I enjoin for your consideration, add to your faith, virtue, love &c. I say in the name of the Lord, if these things are in you, you shall be fruitful. I testify that no man has the power to reveal it, but myself, things in heaven, things in earth and hell—and all shut your mouths for the future—. (Joseph Smith, Jr., “Thomas Bullock Report”, May 12, 1844, Temple Stand, The Words of Joseph Smith, Ehat/Cook, pg. 369)

“I have asked the Lord to take me away. I have to seal my testimony to this generation with my blood. I have to do it for this work will never progress until I am gone for the testimony is of no force until the testator is dead. People little know who I am when they talk about me, and they never will know until they see me weighed in the balance in the Kingdom of God. Then they will know who I am, and see me as I am. I dare not tell them and they do not know me.” These words were spoken with such power that they penetrated the heart of every soul that believed on him. (Joseph Smith, as quoted by Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner, speech given at BYU, 1905)

I rejoice in hearing the testimony of my aged friends. You don’t know me; you never knew my heart. No man knows my history. I cannot tell it: I shall never undertake it. I don’t blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I could not have believed it myself. I never did harm any man since I was born in the world. My voice is always for peace. I cannot lie down until all my work is finished. I never think any evil, nor do anything to the harm of my fellowman. When I am called by the trump of the archangel and weighed in the balance, you will all know me then. I add no more. God bless you all. Amen. (Joseph Smith, “King Follett Discourse,” April 7, 1844, TPJS, pp. 361-362)

I have heard him [Joseph Smith] say on certain occasions, “You do not know who I am.” The world did not like him. The world did not like either the Savior, or the Prophets; they have never liked revealed truth; and it is as much as a bargain for the Saints even to bear the truth. (John Taylor, October 20, 1881, JD 26:106)

You did not know who you had amongst you. Joseph so loved this people that he gave his life for them; … Joseph and Hyrum have given their lives for the church. But very few knew Joseph’s character; he loved you unto death—you did not know it until after his death: he has now sealed his testimony with his blood. If the Twelve had been here we would not have seen him given up—he should not have been given up. He was in your midst, but you did not know him; he has been taken away, for the people are not worthy of him. (Brigham Young, August 8, 1844, BYA 1:45)

If you find out who Joseph was, you will know as much about God as you need to at present; for if He said, “I am a God to this people.” He did not say that He was the only wise God. Jesus was a God to the people when he was upon the earth, and is yet. Moses was a God to the children of Israel, and in this manner you may go right back to Father Adam. (Brigham Young, March 8, 1857, JD 4:270)

And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there never is but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead. (Doctrine and Covenants 132:7)

Secondly, I have read more bastardized text from variations on what used to be the Bible than I care to from various Protestant “translators” with much lower agendas than what Joseph Smith ever had. I recently read a version of (what used to be) Romans that made my head spin. At first I thought it was a paraphrase, only to realize, to my horror, how badly the text, along with its context and true meaning, had been mangled. In fact, in my German-language Luther translation, I occasionally happen upon text that has been altered away from Martin Luther’s original translation to fit the current evangelical dogma, with only a microscopic footnote that states the passage has been changed since Luther first translated it. (My own quick research shows that it only happened in the last 100 years, too, since my German-script Bible from the late 1800′s has Luther’s text intact.) Yes, it is that bad in some cases. So for you, or anyone, to go on about Joseph Smith’s earnest attempts at trying to reveal the meaning of certain passages smacks of insincerity or even hypocrisy.

Further, if bishops ever need to speak of the “sinful mess of Joseph Smith,” they will simply quote from his own history, or from the Doctrine & Covenants, both quoted above, and both canonized, as noted above. I don’t think it does any good to harp and dwell on the mistakes of men who can’t defend themselves, especially those who readily admitted them already, and especially those whose lives are mysterious to us — be it Peter or Joseph Smith. It serves no purpose to knock them down, other than to try to feel better about yourself.

As for the “desperate need for Christ’s unmerited grace,” you can read in 2 Nephi 2, where Lehi details to his son, Jacob, that “I know that thou art redeemed, because of the righteousness of thy Redeemer” and that “redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth” and that “no flesh … can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah.”

These are some of the most famous lines from the Book of Mormon, and Joseph Smith never claimed exception to them. I don’t think it would do any more good for a modern apostle to detail Todd’s “wicked sins” and Todd’s desperate need for Christ’s unmerited grace, than it would for them to specifically detail Joseph Smith’s. At best, such an article would be redundant — see the above (and often-cited) canonized autobiographical confessions and divine rebukes. At worst, it would only serve to depress, destroy, and stunt the growth of faith in Jesus Christ, which is the point you’re getting at, right?

The Doctrine & Covenants teaches us the correct model for chastisement: do it quickly, precisely, and with the Spirit. Then get over it already! And most importantly, follow up with lots of love so you don’t leave any lasting bad impressions.

I have the feeling that your wanting to have Joseph Smith publicly castigated has less to do with love or inspired correction than it has to do with self-loathing. I have the feeling that your feelings for Joseph Smith and his faults are truly a reflection of your feelings of yourself. I have nothing to base this on, of course, other than my dabblings in psychology. I might be way off, but often our loathing for others has its source in ourselves.

Let me set you straight about official Church doctrine (you might be surprised!). The desperate need for redemption from sin is universal and absolute. It encompasses every apostle and prophet to have walked the earth, including Joseph Smith, Peter, Lehi, Abraham, and the rest. Not one man has the ability to save himself. We humans are not capable of moving vertically — that is Christ’s job. Our job is to move horizontally — either toward Christ or away from him. This is a paraphrase of official doctrine, but it’s just that. (Someday I’ll post my entire vertical/horizontal, anti-ladder philosophy.)

In sum, is your purpose in picking at the particulars of a person’s character to produce doubt, uncertainty, fear, guilt, and otherwise repress a person’s spirit, or is it to build faith, inspire, enlighten, uplift and draw closer to Christ? Joseph Smith, despite (or perhaps because of?) his “wicked mess” of sins, lived out his life trying to bring others closer to Christ. If you stopped dwelling on his mistakes (which are well documented, we know! so did he!) you might learn something from his example.

Jon

And men pronounce there own woes upon them. And yes, thats from the Book of Mormon! I have absolutely no problem quoting something that comes from God!

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!

Ray, Joseph Smith has a “woe” hanging over my head in Isaiah 29. I am damned if I don’t trust him. Yes, he is about as dead earnest over the issues as I am.

It bugs me to no end to hear modern Christians bash early prophets like Peter and Paul, then turn around and bash Mormons for letting go of some of the early teachings of Joseph and Brigham. The hypocrisy is so thick it is amazing. On the other side of the coin, there are those who claim Biblical inerrancy – who refuse to consider the possibility that earlier prophets and apostles might not have recorded the universal, unending word of God – and turn around and bash Mormons for “worshiping” Joseph (again, even though we have let go of quite a few of his earliest teachings). Again, the irony makes me gag. The truest irony is that BOTH of these groups claim we worship Joseph – even though, in practical terms, when these charges have any degree of legitimacy, we simply are treating him like these people treat the prophets of their own heritage – either too harshly or with too much honor.

Damned if you do; damned if you don’t – even though each extreme in Mormonism tends to be less extreme than its counterpart in Protestantism. Physician, heal thyself.

I think you’ll find more than a few doctrinal developments since Joseph Smith’s time. What we don’t do is use prior prophets to attack later ones, the way Jews will reject Jesus because he doesn’t conform to their interpretation of the OT.

BTW, I think some of the things evangelicals will say about Peter and so on are shameful. Believing Christ and the necessity of his grace doesn’t require belittling everyone and everything. Peter was a great man.

From Joseph Smith-History:

28 During the space of time which intervened between the time I had the vision and the year eighteen hundred and twenty-three—having been forbidden to join any of the religious sects of the day, and being of very tender years, and persecuted by those who ought to have been my friends and to have treated me kindly, and if they supposed me to be deluded to have endeavored in a proper and affectionate manner to have reclaimed me—I was left to all kinds of temptations; and, mingling with all kinds of society, I frequently fell into many foolish errors, and displayed the weakness of youth, and the foibles of human nature; which, I am sorry to say, led me into divers temptations, offensive in the sight of God. In making this confession, no one need suppose me guilty of any great or malignant sins. A disposition to commit such was never in my nature. But I was guilty of levity, and sometimes associated with jovial company, etc., not consistent with that character which ought to be maintained by one who was called of God as I had been. But this will not seem very strange to any one who recollects my youth, and is acquainted with my native cheery temperament.
29 In consequence of these things, I often felt condemned for my weakness and imperfections; when, on the evening of the above-mentioned twenty-first of September, after I had retired to my bed for the night, I betook myself to prayer and supplication to Almighty God for forgiveness of all my sins and follies, and also for a manifestation to me, that I might know of my state and standing before him; for I had full confidence in obtaining a divine manifestation, as I previously had one.

From D&C 3:

3 Remember, remember that it is not the work of God that is frustrated, but the work of men;
4 For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.
5 Behold, you have been entrusted with these things, but how strict were your commandments; and remember also the promises which were made to you, if you did not transgress them.
6 And behold, how oft you have transgressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the persuasions of men.
7 For, behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God, and despise his words—
8 Yet you should have been faithful; and he would have extended his arm and supported you against all the fiery darts of the adversary; and he would have been with you in every time of trouble.
9 Behold, thou art Joseph, and thou wast chosen to do the work of the Lord, but because of transgression, if thou art not aware thou wilt fall.
10 But remember, God is merciful; therefore, repent of that which thou hast done which is contrary to the commandment which I gave you, and thou art still chosen, and art again called to the work;
11 Except thou ado this, thou shalt be delivered up and become as other men, and have no more gift.
12 And when thou deliveredst up that which God had given thee sight and power to translate, thou deliveredst up that which was sacred into the hands of a wicked man,
13 Who has set at naught the counsels of God, and has broken the most sacred promises which were made before God, and has depended upon his own judgment and boasted in his own wisdom.
14 And this is the reason that thou hast lost thy privileges for a season—
15 For thou hast suffered the counsel of thy director to be trampled upon from the beginning.

From D&C 5:

21 And now I command you, my servant Joseph, to repent and walk more uprightly before me, and to yield to the persuasions of men no more;

From D&C 20:

5 After it was truly manifested unto this first elder that he had received a remission of his sins, he was entangled again in the vanities of the world;
6 But after repenting, and humbling himself sincerely, through faith, God ministered unto him by an holy angel, whose countenance was as lightning, and whose garments were pure and white above all other whiteness;

Not only do we believe that Joseph Smith was a faulty and sinful man, but the idea is _canonized_.