Comments on: The Problem of Counselling with Councils http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/07/the-problem-of-counselling-with-councils/ Truth Will Prevail Sun, 12 Feb 2012 07:57:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Riker http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/07/the-problem-of-counselling-with-councils/#comment-228868 Riker Thu, 19 Jul 2007 02:48:13 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3952#comment-228868 I think another reason why councils work; I am sure this has already been addressed. It is a very rare moment indeed when a leader proposes something so outrageous that his council that he is sitting with rises up and destroys the meeting ( not saying this hasn\'t happen; but it\'s rare in our day and location ). Most choices that are made within our councils are of a positive nature without room to classify them as outright evil or offensive. They might not be as effecitive but almost always positive. Although my missionary correlation meeting is torture due to the lack of leadership of the ward mission leader. Even this though is not so bad where we can\'t function. I think another reason why councils work; I am sure this has already been addressed. It is a very rare moment indeed when a leader proposes something so outrageous that his council that he is sitting with rises up and destroys the meeting ( not saying this hasn\’t happen; but it\’s rare in our day and location ). Most choices that are made within our councils are of a positive nature without room to classify them as outright evil or offensive. They might not be as effecitive but almost always positive.

Although my missionary correlation meeting is torture due to the lack of leadership of the ward mission leader. Even this though is not so bad where we can\’t function.

]]> By: Riker http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/07/the-problem-of-counselling-with-councils/#comment-228867 Riker Thu, 19 Jul 2007 02:48:08 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3952#comment-228867 I think another reason why councils work; I am sure this has already been addressed. It is a very rare moment indeed when a leader proposes something so outrageous that his council that he is sitting with rises up and destroys the meeting ( not saying this hasn\'t happen; but it\'s rare in our day and location ). Most choices that are made within our councils are of a positive nature without room to classify them as outright evil or offensive. They might not be as effecitive but almost always positive. Although my missionary correlation meeting is torture due to the lack of leadership of the ward mission leader. Even this though is not so bad where we can\'t function. I think another reason why councils work; I am sure this has already been addressed. It is a very rare moment indeed when a leader proposes something so outrageous that his council that he is sitting with rises up and destroys the meeting ( not saying this hasn\’t happen; but it\’s rare in our day and location ). Most choices that are made within our councils are of a positive nature without room to classify them as outright evil or offensive. They might not be as effecitive but almost always positive.

Although my missionary correlation meeting is torture due to the lack of leadership of the ward mission leader. Even this though is not so bad where we can\’t function.

]]> By: Bart Mortensen http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/07/the-problem-of-counselling-with-councils/#comment-228861 Bart Mortensen Wed, 18 Jul 2007 22:11:07 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3952#comment-228861 I appreciate the story of the wise bishop who sincerely requested opinions. But, I\'ve also sat in on church councils where the outcome was known within 30 seconds of sitting down. Any attempt at offering differing viewpoints or at least mellowing those presented were summarily rejected by the rolling of eyes, deep breathes, and the like. I appreciate the story of the wise bishop who sincerely requested opinions. But, I\’ve also sat in on church councils where the outcome was known within 30 seconds of sitting down. Any attempt at offering differing viewpoints or at least mellowing those presented were summarily rejected by the rolling of eyes, deep breathes, and the like.

]]> By: k l h http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/07/the-problem-of-counselling-with-councils/#comment-228652 k l h Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:44:39 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3952#comment-228652 Fascinating. Early Saints convened lots of general councils among the populous to do lots of back and forth before they'd slowly wend their way towards commonly agreed upon decisions (or something like that). (Which reminded me of what I've read about the Saudis - who also subscribe to some kind of ideals of a theocratic kingdom, yet one that's somewhat theodemocracy in that it's their long-established habit to rarely move on something before they've basically reached consensus.) Fascinating.

Early Saints convened lots of general councils among the populous to do lots of back and forth before they’d slowly wend their way towards commonly agreed upon decisions (or something like that).

(Which reminded me of what I’ve read about the Saudis – who also subscribe to some kind of ideals of a theocratic kingdom, yet one that’s somewhat theodemocracy in that it’s their long-established habit to rarely move on something before they’ve basically reached consensus.)

]]> By: Adam Greenwood http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/07/the-problem-of-counselling-with-councils/#comment-228647 Adam Greenwood Mon, 16 Jul 2007 16:28:32 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3952#comment-228647 My comments have also been concerning Church councils. One of the reasons they work is that by their very nature they exclude an enormous diversity of viewpoints. If they did not, they wouldn't work. My comments have also been concerning Church councils. One of the reasons they work is that by their very nature they exclude an enormous diversity of viewpoints. If they did not, they wouldn’t work.

]]> By: Jonovitch http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/07/the-problem-of-counselling-with-councils/#comment-228643 Jonovitch Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:16:49 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3952#comment-228643 Adam, your first sentence in #20 seems to have deliberately misunderstood me. Most of the comments here, including mine, have been concerning Church councils, which obviously would not include your jihadis and Satanists. The second sentence in your comment seems to confirm and reflect my #16 comments. I roll my eyes and nod in agreement, respectively. Jon Adam, your first sentence in #20 seems to have deliberately misunderstood me. Most of the comments here, including mine, have been concerning Church councils, which obviously would not include your jihadis and Satanists. The second sentence in your comment seems to confirm and reflect my #16 comments. I roll my eyes and nod in agreement, respectively.

Jon

]]> By: Ugly Mahana http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/07/the-problem-of-counselling-with-councils/#comment-228609 Ugly Mahana Sun, 15 Jul 2007 19:17:39 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3952#comment-228609 Of course Joseph spoke to at least Hyrum (Historians: was this while Hyrum was in the first pres.?) regarding polygamy. And many, if not most, of the 'successful' steps in the restoration, including the creation of councils in the first place, were not discussed before being initiated, either. Of course Joseph spoke to at least Hyrum (Historians: was this while Hyrum was in the first pres.?) regarding polygamy. And many, if not most, of the ‘successful’ steps in the restoration, including the creation of councils in the first place, were not discussed before being initiated, either.

]]> By: Mark IV http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/07/the-problem-of-counselling-with-councils/#comment-228586 Mark IV Sat, 14 Jul 2007 23:06:42 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3952#comment-228586 There is also another benefit of councils we should not overlook. The process of counselling together can help a leader avoid his own worst tendencies. Counselors see things in us we don't see in ourselves, including the things we would rather not mention. A bishop or SP who seeks honest advice from counselors will often spare himself future embarrassment or the need to backtrack. It could be argued that two mistakes made in the restoration were the implementation of polygamy and the implementation of the priesthood ban. For various reasons, those two practices were not discussed before they were initiated. Perhaps the council approach could have spared us some heartache. There is also another benefit of councils we should not overlook. The process of counselling together can help a leader avoid his own worst tendencies. Counselors see things in us we don’t see in ourselves, including the things we would rather not mention. A bishop or SP who seeks honest advice from counselors will often spare himself future embarrassment or the need to backtrack.

It could be argued that two mistakes made in the restoration were the implementation of polygamy and the implementation of the priesthood ban. For various reasons, those two practices were not discussed before they were initiated. Perhaps the council approach could have spared us some heartache.

]]> By: Robert C. http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/07/the-problem-of-counselling-with-councils/#comment-228494 Robert C. Fri, 13 Jul 2007 21:08:23 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3952#comment-228494 Nate #5, I think you failed to include perhaps the most interesting and differentiating verse, <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/102/19#19" rel="nofollow">D&C 102:19ff</a>, which clarifies (apparently) that the council is not decided on by majority rule (aren't judicial panels majority rule?), but by the president himself who then "call[s] upon the twelve councilors to sanction the same by their vote," and then the conditions for re-hearings are spelled out if one of the councilors objects. I'm not sure what the implications of this are, but I think it does present a very important difference.... Nate #5, I think you failed to include perhaps the most interesting and differentiating verse, D&C 102:19ff, which clarifies (apparently) that the council is not decided on by majority rule (aren’t judicial panels majority rule?), but by the president himself who then “call[s] upon the twelve councilors to sanction the same by their vote,” and then the conditions for re-hearings are spelled out if one of the councilors objects. I’m not sure what the implications of this are, but I think it does present a very important difference….

]]> By: ROG http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/07/the-problem-of-counselling-with-councils/#comment-228488 ROG Fri, 13 Jul 2007 20:32:06 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3952#comment-228488 Elder Oaks gives critical insight on the success of councils and his suggestion here is that advocacy work that must be done ahead of time. \"Dean (of University of Chicago Law School) Edward H. Levi was a master at honoring and leading his faculty. His faculty meetings were always routine, because he had already thoroughly analyzed every difficult matter, worked out the needed compromises, and done the advocacy with key individuals before the meeting was held. He avoided contention.\" Elder Oaks gives critical insight on the success of councils and his suggestion here is that advocacy work that must be done ahead of time.

\”Dean (of University of Chicago Law School) Edward H. Levi was a master at honoring and leading his faculty. His faculty meetings were always routine, because he had already thoroughly analyzed every difficult matter, worked out the needed compromises, and done the advocacy with key individuals before the meeting was held. He avoided contention.\”

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