Comments on: Glasnost http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/06/glasnost/ Truth Will Prevail Thu, 24 May 2012 19:37:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Dee H. http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/06/glasnost/#comment-228544 Dee H. Sat, 14 Jul 2007 01:14:17 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3907#comment-228544 The article is likely appearing because: 1) This year is the anniversary of the MMM. Note that the past few years have coincided with an extremely important time in the Church—handcarts, Utah War, MMM, etc. This has garnered attention from media, historians, TV, and so forth. 2) “Pre-sponse” to the ridiculous movie. 3) The groundbreaking work mentioned in comment #22. But I feel most impressed to say that I AGREE with #21! The Ensign is one of the great blessings we have as Latter-day Saints. I have read comments in this and other blogs that disparage it or that are surprised at what the writers consider amazing “departures”. Those who don’t read the Ensign (or read it haphazardly) miss out on much. Who has read Elder Oaks talk on “Timing” (Ensign, October 2003) and the personal as well as general implications on eternal marriage therein? Who has read President Hinckley’s astounding article on the “Quorum of the First Presidency” (Ensign, December, 2005) where President Hinckley contemplates the power of the Seventy in the event that the First Presidency and Twelve were “destroyed”. The former article is a reaffirmation of longstanding doctrine and the latter article is a truly important contribution on Church government and yet it has been rarely noticed or discussed. Lastly, I admire Elder Jensen much (and for a variety of reasons). But have we forgotten that he was called by a Prophet of God? Perhaps half of our surprise is born of ignorance of the amazing things said all of the time in the Ensign and elsewhere and the other half is that we are trying to see divine changes through a culture/personal/political context when in fact, they are simply divine. The article is likely appearing because:
1) This year is the anniversary of the MMM. Note that the past few years have coincided with an extremely important time in the Church—handcarts, Utah War, MMM, etc. This has garnered attention from media, historians, TV, and so forth.
2) “Pre-sponse” to the ridiculous movie.
3) The groundbreaking work mentioned in comment #22.

But I feel most impressed to say that I AGREE with #21! The Ensign is one of the great blessings we have as Latter-day Saints. I have read comments in this and other blogs that disparage it or that are surprised at what the writers consider amazing “departures”.

Those who don’t read the Ensign (or read it haphazardly) miss out on much. Who has read Elder Oaks talk on “Timing” (Ensign, October 2003) and the personal as well as general implications on eternal marriage therein? Who has read President Hinckley’s astounding article on the “Quorum of the First Presidency” (Ensign, December, 2005) where President Hinckley contemplates the power of the Seventy in the event that the First Presidency and Twelve were “destroyed”. The former article is a reaffirmation of longstanding doctrine and the latter article is a truly important contribution on Church government and yet it has been rarely noticed or discussed.

Lastly, I admire Elder Jensen much (and for a variety of reasons). But have we forgotten that he was called by a Prophet of God? Perhaps half of our surprise is born of ignorance of the amazing things said all of the time in the Ensign and elsewhere and the other half is that we are trying to see divine changes through a culture/personal/political context when in fact, they are simply divine.

]]> By: Kathryn http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/06/glasnost/#comment-227348 Kathryn Wed, 04 Jul 2007 22:45:34 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3907#comment-227348 Bill - You beat me to the punch-line on this one, in that I agree with most of what you have to say as far as the A-Team goes and who the major players are in making decisions in regards to how and when to diseminate details in relation to the more controversial topics of the History of The Church. Craig also has my vote with Otterson, as I have spent the last 6 months over at On Faith. If anyone wants to know what the battlefield is really like out there, just stick around that blog for a while and see how are able to withstand the constant barage. Full armor required at all times, but a great opportunity to learn a lot from others as well to be challenged in your own spiritual thinking skills. I have spent the last couple of years teaching Seminary and this last year also adult Institute. Our curriculum last year was Doctrine and Covenants/Church History. Of course this caused me to be quite perked up to all that has been going on inside and outside of the church over that past year, as it has been most unusual, beyond the normal negative attention the church is accustomed to receiving. One of the great blessings of being involved with the CES program of the church is that it causes one to immerse themselves into the doctrines and history of the scriptures, hence I was consumed with the history of the Church. What caught my attention was the FACT that over that past decade (approx) Gordon B. Hinckley has systematically made certain that each and every one of the sites, memorials, monuments, buildings, etc... He has built temples, refurbished the old and made anew AND built NEW structures to go forward. All of these things have RAISED attention, commemorated and brought forth ANEW the HISTORY OF THIS CHURCH and now... the TIME HAS COME to move this kingdom forward, BUT WE AS MEMBERS MUST STAND UP and be COUNTED. We stand on the \"shoulders of giants\" who have gone before us. Has anyone read the wonderful feature article over at ldsliving.com? I would submit it to all! Whether Mitt Romney wins this election or not, all those who are called on the Stake level or who work at the Church Headquarters have been preparing for what is now happening and what will come in exposing us as a people to the world. I see this as a great opportunity to prepare us as a people to ALL STAND and be COUNTED. But I credit the watchman on the Tower, the Prophet, Seer and Revelator, who has known his mission and moved confidently forward with the same faith of those before him. I love Gordon B. Hinckley, and it has been a privilege to see the hand of the Almighty move through His living prophet. Kathryn Bill – You beat me to the punch-line on this one, in that I agree with most of what you have to say as far as the A-Team goes and who the major players are in making decisions in regards to how and when to diseminate details in relation to the more controversial topics of the History of The Church.

Craig also has my vote with Otterson, as I have spent the last 6 months over at On Faith. If anyone wants to know what the battlefield is really like out there, just stick around that blog for a while and see how are able to withstand the constant barage. Full armor required at all times, but a great opportunity to learn a lot from others as well to be challenged in your own spiritual thinking skills.

I have spent the last couple of years teaching Seminary and this last year also adult Institute. Our curriculum last year was Doctrine and Covenants/Church History. Of course this caused me to be quite perked up to all that has been going on inside and outside of the church over that past year, as it has been most unusual, beyond the normal negative attention the church is accustomed to receiving.

One of the great blessings of being involved with the CES program of the church is that it causes one to immerse themselves into the doctrines and history of the scriptures, hence I was consumed with the history of the Church. What caught my attention was the FACT that over that past decade (approx) Gordon B. Hinckley has systematically made certain that each and every one of the sites, memorials, monuments, buildings, etc… He has built temples, refurbished the old and made anew AND built NEW structures to go forward. All of these things have RAISED attention, commemorated and brought forth ANEW the HISTORY OF THIS CHURCH and now… the TIME HAS COME to move this kingdom forward, BUT WE AS MEMBERS MUST STAND UP and be COUNTED.

We stand on the \”shoulders of giants\” who have gone before us. Has anyone read the wonderful feature article over at ldsliving.com? I would submit it to all! Whether Mitt Romney wins this election or not, all those who are called on the Stake level or who work at the Church Headquarters have been preparing for what is now happening and what will come in exposing us as a people to the world.

I see this as a great opportunity to prepare us as a people to ALL STAND and be COUNTED. But I credit the watchman on the Tower, the Prophet, Seer and Revelator, who has known his mission and moved confidently forward with the same faith of those before him. I love Gordon B. Hinckley, and it has been a privilege to see the hand of the Almighty move through His living prophet.
Kathryn

]]> By: Jacqueline de Gaston http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/06/glasnost/#comment-227189 Jacqueline de Gaston Tue, 03 Jul 2007 02:56:56 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3907#comment-227189 I really appreciate the increased openness and hope it carries over into other topics also. I really appreciate the increased openness and hope it carries over into other topics also.

]]> By: Bill MacKinnon http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/06/glasnost/#comment-226427 Bill MacKinnon Fri, 22 Jun 2007 20:37:56 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3907#comment-226427 Craig Clayton, I wouldn't pretend to know the inner workings of the LDS Church and so have no basis to challenge your thought about the impact of Michael Ottersen. However, if by "the new openness," you mean the Rick Turley "Ensign" article on MMM I'd suggest that while PR counsel may have played a role in helping to decide when and how to release it unearthing of the substantive "stuff" of the article and its writing are the result of a collaborative effort over a more than five-year period involving historians and archivists --dozens of them -- who have vacuumed perhaps fifty or more manuscript collections for the three co-authors. (Librarians in Connecticut, North Carolina, and Iowa have commented to me about "my colleagues from Salt Lake City" when I've asked about certain manuscript collections.) Speculation by outsiders as to the financial resources required to sustain this effort run well into the six-figure ballpark. How would such an effort have been sanctioned and taken place? Brigham Young used to describe himself as "a Yankee guesser" before speculating on some subject. If I had to guess, I'd say that whatever the approach to MMM turns out to be with the unfolding of events over the next year, that a combination of President Hinckley, Elder Jensen, and Managing Director Turley will be among the prime movers vis a vis the substance involved -- hopefully with sage advice from the PR professional(s). My impression is that President Hinckley is pretty adept in this arena on his own. Craig Clayton,
I wouldn’t pretend to know the inner workings of the LDS Church and so have no basis to challenge your thought about the impact of Michael Ottersen. However, if by “the new openness,” you mean the Rick Turley “Ensign” article on MMM I’d suggest that while PR counsel may have played a role in helping to decide when and how to release it unearthing of the substantive “stuff” of the article and its writing are the result of a collaborative effort over a more than five-year period involving historians and archivists –dozens of them — who have vacuumed perhaps fifty or more manuscript collections for the three co-authors. (Librarians in Connecticut, North Carolina, and Iowa have commented to me about “my colleagues from Salt Lake City” when I’ve asked about certain manuscript collections.) Speculation by outsiders as to the financial resources required to sustain this effort run well into the six-figure ballpark. How would such an effort have been sanctioned and taken place? Brigham Young used to describe himself as “a Yankee guesser” before speculating on some subject. If I had to guess, I’d say that whatever the approach to MMM turns out to be with the unfolding of events over the next year, that a combination of President Hinckley, Elder Jensen, and Managing Director Turley will be among the prime movers vis a vis the substance involved — hopefully with sage advice from the PR professional(s). My impression is that President Hinckley is pretty adept in this arena on his own.

]]> By: CRAIG CLAYTON http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/06/glasnost/#comment-226420 CRAIG CLAYTON Fri, 22 Jun 2007 19:56:40 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3907#comment-226420 Re the reason for the new openness: I suspect Michael Ottersen. A PR professional with enough prestige or assertiveness to pursuade the Brethren to do what would naturally seem counter-productive to them. The UK background means he views issues and the authorities differently than the typical church employee. Re the reason for the new openness: I suspect Michael Ottersen. A PR professional with enough prestige or assertiveness to pursuade the Brethren to do what would naturally seem counter-productive to them. The UK background means he views issues and the authorities differently than the typical church employee.

]]> By: jjohnsen http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/06/glasnost/#comment-226408 jjohnsen Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:12:29 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3907#comment-226408 "Yes, it does appear too coincidental that this article would come out right when September Dawn was scheduled to come out this Friday. Fortunately, I think we have little to fear from the film. The studio, realizing how bad this movie is (see this Slant review), has postponed the film to late August – the summer movie trash can. I’m betting few see the film and even fewer take it seriously." And this is after being moved from the original date in May. Based on the movement, a very poor trailer, no apparent marketing budget and negative early reviews, I wouldn't be surprised to see the studio cut it's losses and send it direct-to-DVD. Slant calls it "the year's first honest-to-goodness exploitation flick". “Yes, it does appear too coincidental that this article would come out right when September Dawn was scheduled to come out this Friday. Fortunately, I think we have little to fear from the film. The studio, realizing how bad this movie is (see this Slant review), has postponed the film to late August – the summer movie trash can. I’m betting few see the film and even fewer take it seriously.”

And this is after being moved from the original date in May. Based on the movement, a very poor trailer, no apparent marketing budget and negative early reviews, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the studio cut it’s losses and send it direct-to-DVD.

Slant calls it “the year’s first honest-to-goodness exploitation flick”.

]]> By: WillF http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/06/glasnost/#comment-226383 WillF Fri, 22 Jun 2007 03:47:41 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3907#comment-226383 Maybe someone else has pointed this out (I didn't see it when skimming the comments), but the article is features on the front page of lds.org. (Ok, so there isn't a front page of a website, but in this case the newspaper metaphor seems apropo): http://lds.org "The Mountain Meadows Massacre September 11 marks the anniversary of the 1857 massacre of some 120 California-bound emigrants in southern Utah. An article by Richard E. Turley Jr., the managing director for the Family and Church History Department, will be printed in the September 2007 Ensign magazine, but you can read it online now. " Maybe someone else has pointed this out (I didn’t see it when skimming the comments), but the article is features on the front page of lds.org. (Ok, so there isn’t a front page of a website, but in this case the newspaper metaphor seems apropo):

http://lds.org

“The Mountain Meadows Massacre
September 11 marks the anniversary of the 1857 massacre of some 120 California-bound emigrants in southern Utah. An article by Richard E. Turley Jr., the managing director for the Family and Church History Department, will be printed in the September 2007 Ensign magazine, but you can read it online now. “

]]> By: Bill MacKinnon http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/06/glasnost/#comment-226373 Bill MacKinnon Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:19:13 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3907#comment-226373 k l h, Re your #36, I have not read Shannon A. Novak's "House of Mourning," but based on the link in your message and the University of Utah Press' promotional material, she has apparently tried to move beyond the issue of who did what to whom and why in MMM and to focus instead on the victims using a combination of forensic anthropology and historical context. How well she does this with what conclusions I don't know. I don't know Novak well at all, having just had dinner with her once in a small group setting about six years ago. She took her Ph.D. from U. of U. in 1999 and is now an assistant professor of anthropology at the Maxwell School of Syracuse U. She first received substantial public attention in 1999 in connection with the accidental dislodgement of victims' bones at MM during the preparatory construction and grading work being done around the refurbished cairn which was to have been dedicated by President Hinckley on September 11, 1999, the anniversary of the tragedy. As you may recall there was a bit of a tussle between the law enforcement, anthro., and historical communities in Utah over the appropriate examination of these remains and over what time period with what impact on the re-dedication timetable. As I recall, Novak was deeply involved in the rapid examination of the bones until the governor decreed almost on the eve of the re-dedication that the forensic work was to cease and the remains promptly re-buried with an appropriate commital service. Novak then wrote an article with Derinna Kopp titled "To Feed a Tree in Zion": Osteological Analysis of the 1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre," published in "Historical Archaeology" 37, no. 2 (2003): 85-108. In the fall of 2004 at its annual meeting, the Utah State Historical Society awarded this piece its Best Utah History Article Award for the best article on Utah history not published in "UHQ." This whole issue of what the remains showed and what might have happened if a longer, more thorough examination had been permitted was very controversial because a forensic anthropologist could determine what weapons were used on the victims (shedding direct light on the role of Paiutes versus Nauvoo Legionnaires), whether victims were shot at point-blank range or otherwise, the age of victims, and even the extent of damage done by carnivors after the hasty burials. Arkansas descendants of victims also raised the matter of whether or not identification of individual victims would have been possible using DNA technology. Notwithstanding a lot of work on MMM, this is not Shannon Novak's life's work. She's done a lot of field work in Central America and is part of a group that is going to "reopen" the fate of the Donner Party. She's a competent, highly experienced professional, and I'd be surprised if "House of Mourning" were something other than an interesting, credible piece of wotk. Her c.v. is on the internet, and it includes a very interesting explanation of what she does and how. It can be accessed by Googling "To feed a Tree in Zion" and then clicking on the third link ("Shannon A"). If you read the book, I'd be interested in your reaction and recommendation. Any T&Ser read it already? k l h,
Re your #36, I have not read Shannon A. Novak’s “House of Mourning,” but based on the link in your message and the University of Utah Press’ promotional material, she has apparently tried to move beyond the issue of who did what to whom and why in MMM and to focus instead on the victims using a combination of forensic anthropology and historical context. How well she does this with what conclusions I don’t know.
I don’t know Novak well at all, having just had dinner with her once in a small group setting about six years ago. She took her Ph.D. from U. of U. in 1999 and is now an assistant professor of anthropology at the Maxwell School of Syracuse U. She first received substantial public attention in 1999 in connection with the accidental dislodgement of victims’ bones at MM during the preparatory construction and grading work being done around the refurbished cairn which was to have been dedicated by President Hinckley on September 11, 1999, the anniversary of the tragedy. As you may recall there was a bit of a tussle between the law enforcement, anthro., and historical communities in Utah over the appropriate examination of these remains and over what time period with what impact on the re-dedication timetable. As I recall, Novak was deeply involved in the rapid examination of the bones until the governor decreed almost on the eve of the re-dedication that the forensic work was to cease and the remains promptly re-buried with an appropriate commital service. Novak then wrote an article with Derinna Kopp titled “To Feed a Tree in Zion”: Osteological Analysis of the 1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre,” published in “Historical Archaeology” 37, no. 2 (2003): 85-108. In the fall of 2004 at its annual meeting, the Utah State Historical Society awarded this piece its Best Utah History Article Award for the best article on Utah history not published in “UHQ.” This whole issue of what the remains showed and what might have happened if a longer, more thorough examination had been permitted was very controversial because a forensic anthropologist could determine what weapons were used on the victims (shedding direct light on the role of Paiutes versus Nauvoo Legionnaires), whether victims were shot at point-blank range or otherwise, the age of victims, and even the extent of damage done by carnivors after the hasty burials. Arkansas descendants of victims also raised the matter of whether or not identification of individual victims would have been possible using DNA technology.
Notwithstanding a lot of work on MMM, this is not Shannon Novak’s life’s work. She’s done a lot of field work in Central America and is part of a group that is going to “reopen” the fate of the Donner Party. She’s a competent, highly experienced professional, and I’d be surprised if “House of Mourning” were something other than an interesting, credible piece of wotk. Her c.v. is on the internet, and it includes a very interesting explanation of what she does and how. It can be accessed by Googling “To feed a Tree in Zion” and then clicking on the third link (“Shannon A”).
If you read the book, I’d be interested in your reaction and recommendation. Any T&Ser read it already?

]]> By: k l h http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/06/glasnost/#comment-226365 k l h Thu, 21 Jun 2007 21:45:29 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3907#comment-226365 Bill, what do you know about Novak's "House of Mourning"? ( http://www.amazon.com/House-Mourning-Biocultural-History-Mountain/dp/0874809193/ref=sr_1_1/102-3243796-6627337?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182462256&sr=8-1 ) Bill, what do you know about Novak’s “House of Mourning”? ( http://www.amazon.com/House-Mourning-Biocultural-History-Mountain/dp/0874809193/ref=sr_1_1/102-3243796-6627337?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182462256&sr=8-1 )

]]> By: Giasen http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2007/06/glasnost/#comment-226346 Giasen Thu, 21 Jun 2007 18:53:00 +0000 http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3907#comment-226346 I'm still waiting for the 'September Dawn' prequel, 'October Extermination'. I’m still waiting for the ‘September Dawn’ prequel, ‘October Extermination’.

]]>